Starting from the Bottom … Or Not

Welcome to Family Business NextGen 2024. I'm David Shaw, the publishing director for Family Business Magazine, and I'm so glad that you could join us. Family Business NextGen is a series of one hour daily sessions held this week addressing the unique challenges and goals of the next generation of multi-generational family owned businesses. Each day we're going to feature notable next gen speakers and thought leaders in conversation style discussions to address key issues that are facing next gens within the family business. I hope you'll come away with new strategies that you can put to use and new peers to add to your network. More than 700 of you who have have registered for this event, and we thank you for that Family Business Magazine has honored next gen family members through our annual next gens to watch since 2018. And here are all the next gens to watch that we've honored since then, and we'll be welcoming a new class of next gens to watch this year. We're proud to highlight the strengths and achievements of those who will continue the legacy of the family business. So how does the these, how do these sessions work? They are 60 minute sessions each day this week. We welcome your questions and your comments throughout the session. Just look, look for the ask a question bar right below where you see the slide and use that as you see fit. You can earn a certificate of completion by attending at least four out of the five weekly sessions and answering two polling questions during each session. We will be putting those polling questions up, uh, during, throughout the session. Uh, we won't break for them, but please do fill out and answer the polling question. And then once I show all the results, just press the little X and it'll take it off your screen. Um, on Friday after the final session, you'll have the opportunity to join an hour long Zoom meetup with your fellow participants. So we'll begin with a discussion of the pros and cons of working inside or outside the business, jumping right in or going outside for, uh, uh, to, uh, to get experience. And we're going to talk about that from both perspectives. Our speakers are Griffin Wilson, vice President, the Wilson Companies Grant Nickel Director of Development for Nickel Investments Company, and they will be moderated by our very own Zach Needles, the editor in Chief of Family Business Magazine. So Zach, I'm gonna turn it over to you. Enjoy the discussion and thank you Griffin and Grant for being part of this. Great. Thanks David. Welcome everybody. Welcome Grant. And Griffin, why don't we kick off by having you guys introduce yourselves and describe a little bit about what your, your family business does. Why don't we start with you, grant? Sounds good. Uh, good afternoon. Uh, my name is Grant Nichol and I'm the, uh, director of development for Nickel Investment Company. Uh, we are 120 year old family business, and I represent the fifth generation, um, in this generation. We are a real estate investment and development company based in Nashville, Tennessee. And, uh, we focus on projects in the southeast. Um, the first three generations were in the agriculture and cattle ranching business. And the fourth generation, we sold the ranches and moved into commercial real estate. Excellent. And Griffin, tell us a little bit about your company. We, uh, I'm Gen three at the Wilson Companies, uh, about 45, 40 6-year-old, uh, family business. My grandfather had started, uh, an insurance agency here in Chicago in the seventies, and then they pivoted to the payroll processing and HR outsourcing in the nineties. Uh, headquartered here in Chicago, but were active in all 50 states in Puerto Rico, uh, and I oversee, uh, business development for both companies. Excellent. Uh, so Griffin, what was your early work experience? So, I kind of started back in high school. Uh, I never really worked for my father until a few years ago. I always had worked for a different department head, uh, or a different company and wanted to kind of gain the ropes and see what the different nuances were in, in each, uh, in each sector. And that gave me a little bit more of awareness of, you know, whether I wanted to go into this family business or kind of adventure out. Uh, and then when I got to university, uh, did the same thing, worked a little bit more hands-on within the business in a few different departments. And then upon graduation, uh, I had joined the, the family business about seven years ago. Excellent. How about you grant? Sure. So from an early age, I spent a fair amount of time with my grandfather and my dad. Uh, they would take me on business trips, uh, tour markets, and visit our real estate projects. Um, and in high school, I, uh, interned at the company and, uh, learned how to use Excel, how to use PowerPoint, and, um, created, uh, discounted cash flow models, which are, uh, central to our business. Um, I also worked at a restaurant, which I thought was an invaluable, uh, experience. Uh, and then in college, um, I interned at a few different banks, uh, but notably, uh, interned for PNC in their multifamily lending group. Um, Excellent. Yeah, if you can make it in the restaurant business, you can, you can make it anywhere for sure. Agree. Um, great, great. Do you have, uh, siblings or cousins who are involved in the business? I do not. Um, so in the fourth generation, uh, we bought out a majority of my cousins. And then, um, in the fifth generation, we, uh, I'm the only one in the family business. Uh, my brother and sister, um, focused on different career paths and they're very successful. Uh, but I'm the only one who is really interested in real estate. I see. And how about you, Griffin? We're fairly small family business. Uh, it's myself, my brother, and then I have one cousin. Gotcha. And this is an interesting question, when you're talking about family businesses, where do you go to get outside feedback, Griffin? Um, I would say just having, um, direct conversations to be blunt with my father or other family members or my uncle, uh, a peer group within YPO and YNG. Uh, and fortunate to have grown up with a lot of friends and families that are in the family business. And so, you know, kind of by shared experiences and saying, Hey, you know, I'm going through this, or I foresee this, you know, challenge happening in the next four to five years, you know, is this something that you guys encountered when you guys were transitioning through? Uh, you know, a G two to G three or G four to G five? Um, and so yeah, just shared experiences and like-minded individuals. Right. How about you grant? Sure. So, um, similar to Griffin, um, spent a lot of time with my dad asking questions, but I'm also a member of the family office exchange, uh, rising gen peer network. So that's been very beneficial. Um, uh, I'm also participating in a, uh, next gen peer group, which is run by the Family Business Consulting Group. Uh, we have monthly meetings, um, and I found that to be very beneficial. And then lastly, um, I attend some, uh, local conferences that are held here in Nashville. So for instance, uh, PWC has their now gen leadership program this upcoming May. Um, so all of those have been very beneficial. Excellent. And, and Grant, can you tell us a little bit about what type of governance your family has? Sure. So, um, in 2016, uh, we established a private family trust company. So a private family trust company. It's a state chartered entity that's designed to provide fiduciary services to members of the family. Um, we have a board of directors and several different committees such as an investment committee, distribution committee and audit committee. Um, I chair the investment committee. Um, and then the primary advantages of a private family trust company are that you have a permanent trustee and enhanced flexibility and control over decision making and then privacy. And also you're able to, uh, integrate the next generation through involvement in board meetings and committees. Um, and then in addition to the private family trust company, um, we created a family business constitution and started holding annual family meetings. So the, um, the family constitution, uh, it includes an employment policy. So in the employment policy, um, to join the family business, you have to have five years of outside work experience with the desire of having three years consecutively at one company to establish consistency. Um, and then also for the, the annual family meetings. Um, my wife and then my brother-in-Law, um, participated in last year's annual family meeting, which, uh, was a big step in the right direction. Um, so it's gonna continue to evolve. Excellent. And Griffin, how about you? What what's the governance? We are, uh, we are the complete opposite of Grant and his family. We have zero, um, for better or for worse. Uh, we've talked about bringing in a governance board, um, and weighed our options, uh, both the pros and the cons. It's something that we really want to do, uh, but it's just finding and gathering those the right individuals who we think we'd find value in, uh, to bring in, um, to us. Sure. And Grant, you, you mentioned outside work experience, so I wanted to ask you a little bit about that. What, what do you think the advantages are of having that outside work experience and then coming into accounting business from there? Sure. So, um, I majored in finance in college, and, um, so I started my career in corporate finance working for PNC in Wells Fargo. Uh, so at Wells Fargo, I was working in the investment as an investment banking analyst in the leveraged finance group. Um, so I think the primary advantages were that it was a demanding and a fast paced, yet rewarding environment. Um, I was able to develop technical skills such as evaluation and research, financial modeling and, uh, presentation creation, and then soft skills such as time management organization, and attention to detail. Um, I really liked working in Wells Fargo, just very strict hierarchy. Um, I was the lowest on the totem pole, um, as an analyst, and I got to work with some really interesting and impressive people. And then how about the flip side of that? The disadvantages of, of spending a few years working elsewhere? Sure. Um, it's a tough question 'cause I, I really couldn't point to any disadvantages. Um, I made a concerted effort to stay in contact with our, um, leadership team at the family business just to stay up to date on transactions and strategies. If I hadn't have done that, I think it would've been a disadvantage just because when I did join, I would've been, um, not up to speed on what was going on. Right. Um, but I think given my background in finance, um, working for, uh, a large financial institution was the right path before joining. Did that allow you to bring in any ideas to your family business from the, the previous, uh, employers that you'd worked for? Sure. Um, so at Wells Fargo we had access to timely and accurate data. So, you know, Bloomberg, capital iq, different technology platforms. Um, and then in real estate, when I made the transition, uh, uh, information is becoming more and more of a competitive advantage. Um, so that was one of the first steps we took was updating our technology platforms. So CoStar, Yardi, matrix, RealPage, stuff like that, um, was what I really focused on. Um, but it was, it was certainly a big transition from a cultural perspective. Well, you just read my mind 'cause that's, that was gonna be my next question, that the cultural differences between your previous working environment and your family enterprise. What, what were they and how did you handle those? Sure. So, um, at Wells Fargo, uh, my, my team and leveraged finance was, uh, 75 people. Uh, as I said, it, uh, operated in a very strict hierarchy. Um, so as an analyst, I was the first person to arrive the last to leave. I ate lunch at my desk every day. I didn't really have any control over my workflow. Um, and then when I moved to Nickel Investment Company, uh, we have a team of 15 people. Um, I was the youngest on the team, so lowest on the totem pole again. Um, but we have a very flat structure, so didn't really have much of a hierarchy, um, beyond kind of our, our leadership team, which was my dad and then, um, our CFO who's been with the family for 25 years. Um, so it was definitely a difficult transition because not only was I the most junior team member, but I was also an owner in the business. Right. And it was hard to avoid that. Um, and then I quickly learned that my superior, um, was hesitant to provide constructive feedback, which became a larger issue. Um, and it just took me a while to adapt and kind of learn the ropes. Um, I had to earn trust and respect for my team. Um, but then my superior left after 1.1 and a half years, um, which gave me more responsibility and really allowed me to grow into my role and thrive. Um, and then I was able to contribute more and then take the lead on acquisitions, dispositions, and then just portfolio management. Right. Does that answer, does that answer the question? Absolutely. Were you able to go off for lunch every once in a while too? Even after, yeah, So that was the thing. I, it's funny. So like, I would, I would go pick up my lunch, come right back and eat at my desk and our CFO after, you know, a couple months of my doing this, he's like, you gotta come out with the team. Right? You know, we have hour lunches, this was really our time to spend together. And, um, that was a big transition for me. But, um, Absolutely. Couple of questions, uh, that are relevant. Uh, one goes back a bit, but Grant, um, you mentioned the business board. Are you on that board of directors? And if so, what's, do you have real voting power? I, I do. So I'm on the board. Um, uh, there's, we have three independent directors, um, so folks with different backgrounds, you know, some are in investments, some are, um, have more family office experience, um, some with more, um, dealing with beneficiaries. Um, but then yes, I do sit on the board and I do have voting power. Okay. And, uh, just as a, a quick note, I did run the, uh, first poll. I'm gonna end that survey, but, uh, very interesting that, um, and I'll send the results out to everybody, but, uh, 56%, uh, have worked outside the family business or, uh, plan to, and 12% are currently working outside the family business. So a very, very large group on, on that front. Um, just a a quick question, grant, uh, that came in from somebody, at what age did you become an owner? Sure. Um, so I've technically always, uh, been an owner and a beneficiary. However, um, it really wasn't revealed to me and my siblings until we all graduated from college. So, um, I'm 34 now. I've been with the, the company for almost seven years. Um, so yeah, I was 22 years old when I, uh, really was exposed and understood what it meant to be an owner, uh, in the family business. How about you Griffin? It's, uh, complete dictatorship between my father and my uncle. Um, you know, that there's, my grandmother's still around, so she owns the majority of our insurance agency. Uh, but the Employ Co, which is our core business on the HR side, uh, it's split between the two of them Are, have have discussions occurred on when ownership might be in the cards. Uh, yes and no, but none that I have the ability to kind of disclose publicly. Yeah. David, actually I can add on, um, my dad, who was the primary owner, he actually sold, uh, his interest, uh, to my brother's sister and I, uh, last year. Um, so that was a big transition. Um, okay. Yeah. How did that, how did that transition come about? It was a long time in, in the works. Um, yeah, we started the private Family Trust company in 2016, so we were just trying to get all the governance in place and, um, just really started kicking off a lot of the estate and succession planning. Um, so I would say it took, you know, several years to get to that point. Um, but it was a good transition as we, you know, my dad shifted away from kind of day-to-Day responsibilities and is putting more of that responsibility, um, in the CFO's hands, which I mentioned earlier. Got it. Okay. I will come back with more questions, Zach, take it away. Great, thanks David. Uh, Griffin, you, you mentioned, uh, uh, the process of learning the, the ropes at your company, uh, earlier in the discussion. And so when you started working with the family firm, how long did it really take you to, to learn the ropes? And do you feel like compared to a new employee who isn't a family member, were you able to make significant contributions earlier in your tenure? I'd say yes and no. So, you know, prior to being hired full-time, I had the ability to kind of learn the nuances of the, the specific departments. Uh, and then when I was hired full-time, I was just put into a sales role. Uh, my father had said, you know, the best way to actually learn and talk about our product and service is to go out and sell it. Uh, and so that's what I did. And by doing so, I really learned, uh, our service more in depth and really the nuances that we were able to provide companies. Uh, and so at first, you know, you know, 22, 20 3-year-old joining the family business, you know, everyone's kind of looking at you, uh, for better or for worse, even if you don't think so, people are looking at you. And so I just wanted to prove, you know, that I had the ability to carry my own weight. And so, uh, during the first four years, I had outsold our entire sales team combined. Uh, and so that kind of proved that I wasn't just here to just hang out, uh, for the fun of it and collect a check and be part of the family I was actually here to, to hustle and, and help be a part of our family business and grow our family business. Um, and so I believe my sales metrics kind of just justified, uh, my presence within the organization. Uh, and within doing so, now I'm part of our, our board, uh, it's made up of seven people within our business. Three of 'em are family members, myself included, and then our CFO and two other vice presidents. Um, you know, there's a pro and con, obviously the pro is, I had the ability to build rapport with all of our, with our entire company and kind of make a name for myself. Uh, and the kindness. I didn't really have outside experience like Grant where working for large organizations, uh, like PNC and the experience that he got, you know, um, I wasn't able to. So my brother, who ironically works for with us as well, he worked for a large logistics company prior to coming into our family business. And we do two completely different things. He's in marketing and I'm in business development. And, you know, he's able to apply a lot of the things that he learned, uh, where I, uh, had already gained trust within the organization. So it's kind of a two folded part. Um, but I, I, I prefer the route that I went. Uh, and, you know, if I could do it over again, I would still do, uh, go the route that I went. Absolutely. Yeah. That, that idea of, of having to sort of prove your, your worth, you know, and, and, and show why you are there, and it's not just because you're part of the family. It's 'cause you have something to offer sort of, I think a an underrated challenge that, that folks face, uh, in family businesses. And, and, uh, grant, how about you, you know, how long did it take you to learn the ropes? Um, when you came in from the outside and compared to someone who isn't a family member, do you feel like you were able to, to make significant contributions, you know, basically right away or soon after joining? Sure. So, um, it definitely was a difficult transition for me, um, because I felt like I was getting to a point, uh, at Wells Fargo where I had a good amount of confidence and, um, was helping to lead teams with, you know, more junior analysts. Um, and then when I came over, um, I was again the youngest team member, and I just really had to earn trust and respect and grow my confidence again. Um, and so essentially they created a role for me, which I think in hindsight was not, um, the best approach. Um, so I came in as just a, a associate, sorry, associate, um, and was working on all things acquisitions, dispositions, portfolio management, um, but my superior and I, there was some headbutting there and, um, it just, it wasn't a good fit for that first year and a half. Um, so, um, essentially I just, uh, I'd put my head down and do the best I could. And then I think once I was given the opportunity and given more responsibility, that's when I could really, uh, prove myself. Uh, Absolutely. What do you think Grant might have been different if you had entered at a higher level, a higher level position? Do you think that would've been better? Do you kind of think that you had to really, uh, you know, sort of pay your dues a little bit, uh, before, before really establishing yourself? That's a great question. Um, I've gone back and forth on this. Um, I think I did need to pay my dues, as you said. Um, however, I probably could have worked, um, elsewhere, whether it was continuing at the bank or working for a, uh, real estate investor, developer elsewhere, um, because then I would've been able to come in, um, with a more senior position. Um, I just think it's in my nature. I would've always wanted to start, um, at the bottom of the totem pole. Right. Work your way up a little bit. And, and Griffin, how about you? I mean, you talked about this starting in that sales role and really just kind of trying to show that you, you know, what you're doing and you're bringing value, but do you think, how do you think things would've been different if you had joined at a, at a higher level and, and not had to sort of prove yourself in that way? You know, great question. I don't know. Um, you know, I kind of enjoyed the thrill of having, you know, being a target. Um, obviously we had other individuals that were part of our team that left 'cause they were like, oh, you know, Griffin's the son's, the owner's son, obviously he gets, you know, treatment or whatever. But you know, as long as you can prove yourself within metrics. Um, but if I was to have a come in at, at a senior leadership position, um, I would just have to prove myself like any other person that we hire within our organization, uh, whether they're at the bottom level or if they're, they hold up, you know, a senior management position. They, they have to prove themselves regardless of, of the role. And that's what I would just have to do. Um, it would, it would probably be be harder at a, at a older age as we're continuing to grow as a business. Uh, and, you know, not to say that this is a good thing, but if you're younger, you kind of have the ability to make a few mistakes. And the older you are and the more senior you are, those little mistakes turn into big mistakes with just larger dollar signs. I think that was very well said. It, uh, there was a comment that came in more than a few, that both of you seem to have really worked very hard on proving yourselves, uh, not only to yourself, but to your family and to non-family members. Did, did any of that come with, um, a price to either of you? Are you still paying the price? Uh, yeah. I mean, I, I thoroughly enjoy working within our family business. Uh, we, we're very close family. Every individual does something completely different, so no one's stepping on each other's toes, which is a, a huge plus. Um, but no, I, I don't think so. I, I agree with Griffin, very close family. I'm, I'm the oldest of three. Um, so I have a great relationship with my siblings. Um, and I think, or I know they implicitly trust me, uh, in this role to be their representative, um, like my dad did for his sister. Um, sure. I mean, I think there's always gonna be chips on shoulders, and it's always, uh, I'm, I'm never gonna stop wanting to prove myself. Um, and just, you know, there's a little bit of imposter syndrome I think that comes with, um, uh, being a family member in a family business. Um, you always wonder if, you know, would they have hired me if my, uh, last name wasn't on the door? Um, but I would like to think that I have proven myself and will continue to do so. Mm-Hmm. And is that proving yourself, this is one of the earliest questions that came in. Um, and maybe you can just offer some general advice, but this question was, my sister and I, who are their g fours are transitioning the company from our father. Um, how do I handle the transition with the employees that worked for my dad and now work for me? I, if you don't mind, Griffin, I'll, I'll take that. Um, something we're somewhat going through right now. Um, and the best way for me to frame it is that I think you have to get your own people, um, or, you know, develop your own people, whether they're at a junior level now that you know will be with you as you make that transition. Um, it's, you know, it's, it's difficult when you look to somebody who's been with the company, for instance, for 25 years, like our CFO and I know, yeah, he's probably my, my best mentor outside of my dad. Uh, but I also know that he's looking to retire in the next 10 years. And, um, it's gonna be interesting to see that transition take place. Hmm. So hopefully that, does that answer the question? Hopefully? I think so. Griffin, do you have a take on it? No, I, I completely agree. Um, you know, our average tenure is 12 and a half, 13 years here. So this is something that I've definitely put a lot of thought to my brother and I and what it's gonna look like within the next couple years, because there's gonna be a lot of senior leadership that's retiring. And so we've definitely put a lot of thought. But, uh, a lot of the peers that I've spoken to, they've said the exact same thing that Grant is, is Grant said is, you know, you're gonna have to, you know, find new people to take the company to the next level. And, you know, it just takes time and trial and error. And I, I think it's always gonna be a bit awkward because let's just say, you know, Griffin and myself, if we were to step into more senior roles, um, given that we're family members, you know, over people that have been with the business for much longer than we have, um, I think it's just impossible to avoid. But I think a lot of people that work for family businesses, um, they do understand that that's, uh, the risks that they run in joining a family business. And, and I think if they have their role and if they've been there for, you know, grant, you said your CFO's been there for 20 something years. Ours just celebrated 20 years last year. You know, he understands the business, he understands and the family, but 20 years is still 20 years. So at some point, you know, our CFO is gonna retire and we're gonna have to either replace him or hire within, um, the hopes of hiring within, uh, is the route that we kinda wanna go, but we won't know until later. And I think just building rapport with mid-management, because someday those mid-management will probably be managers for your company. And so that's kind of the role, the take that my brother and I have looked at. So do, do both companies have non-family members in fairly senior roles? Uh, yep. Yes. Okay. Um, so I guess that that leads to, uh, another question, which is, you know, you know, grant, you mentioned the, uh, you know, know that they're a part of a family business, so they, they understand what may or may not happen. But do you, do you find that your employer, your, uh, how important it is, is it for your coworkers and employees that, that they work in a family business? Does family involvement add value, um, you know, to their, their experience to how they value the company? Or does it ruffle feathers? What, how do you, how do you see that? I believe it adds value. It's something we have to, uh, reiterate. Um, and we try to do so, uh, via quarterly meetings with the team, you know, talk about our family history, how we got to this point, kind of our vision, our values, um, you know, introducing, for instance, the family constitution as kind of the, the guiding document. Um, and, you know, I think rather than keep, um, the employees in the dark, uh, we want them to understand what our long-term, uh, outlook, um, represents and where we expect to go and how we want them to be a part of that. Um, so I, I think, uh, and I, we've been very generous with, um, you know, different benefits and just making it feel like more of a family business than kind of an institutional business. How about you, Griffin? Yeah, on my end, I'd, I'd say just transparency about the future and your goals is very key. Um, fortunate for us, we have other families that work within our business. So our CFO, his daughter, uh, works within the organization. And then we have, uh, two other mother daughter, um, pairs within the company as well as two sisters that work for, uh, within our business. And just, uh, my, so the building that we're in, my grandmother currently owns, uh, and we have a few tenants. So she comes in once a a month to collect rent checks and she'll walk around the office and everyone just, she'll bring her dog and people just adore her. Um, and people know it's a family business through and through. Um, and we just reiterate, you know, the history, our core values, and everyone that's been with us really aligns with a lot of those. And, uh, we've been very transparent about, uh, our vision, uh, as well as the challenges that we face from a, a senior leadership position. And as, as transparent as we can be, it just builds trust within the employees that they know that we have their backs. Um, when push comes to shove, for an example, like Covid hit, uh, we, we have about 55 ish employees and we didn't fire one person and we didn't reduce anybody's pay. Uh, we knew that, you know, there was light at the end of the TU tunnel. We didn't know when. Um, but we just really appreciated everyone's efforts and, and we had the ability financially to keep everybody, uh, at their current pay as well as the benefits that they currently receive. And so everyone really valued that. Obviously, you know, they were gonna go work, you know, maybe 15, 20 hours a week because business wasn't there, but they knew that at some point and they trusted us within our leadership to guide us to the light at the end of the tunnel. And, you know, they were back to work in their normal hours. Um, but that was key as well. Yeah. And I think going off that Griffin, um, very well said. I, uh, for instance, something we're rolling out this summer is a, um, internship. So a couple of our senior executives have, um, sons and daughters who are in college. And so we're gonna, um, give them the same opportunity that I was given, uh, when I was in, uh, high school and college to intern with the company. Um, and then to Griffin's point about Covid and just all the uncertainty right now, especially in commercial real estate, you know, a lot of our peers are, uh, making large layoffs. Um, and we just reiterate to our employees that, you know, we've been here for 120 years and we plan to be here for 120 more. Um, and, you know, we're not gonna run into any issues or we have to, you know, make large, uh, firings or, um, you know, shut down the business. Yeah. That's another benefit of a family business, right? Working for one, the patient capital and you don't have to make rash decisions. Uh, that's an example in both cases, especially with Covid. Um, so let's bring up a question that has been brought up several times here by people, uh, that I know. Um, so I'd like to get to some of these questions with, without getting specific, 'cause I know this gets into a weird area, but compensation, you know, for example, grant, you and your siblings bought the business from your father, but I assume you've got a different compensation program than the siblings who don't work in the business. Is that correct? That is correct. And that works well for the siblings as well? It does. Um, so my siblings do not have a, um, a salary from the company. Um, they don't participate on any of the boards, I think long term we'd like them to. Um, but from a compensation perspective, I'm the only one who's compensated. Um, there are trusts and we have distributions and income matching and different, um, different structures there, but yes. Okay. So basically the ownership is separate from getting compensated for working in the business? Correct. Completely. Okay. And is that similar Griffin in your business? Does, does being, does having the right last name change your compensation or is it just No, it's, it's, it's market value. So we're based it off metrics, um, kind of what you bring in. Uh, majority of our employees are salary based and, and family members are all salary based, and it's based off of, uh, business growth and metrics that we meet each year. Okay. So then there was a specific question for you, Griffin. Uh, so as a family member who doesn't have ownership yet, do you ever prompt these kinds of discussions with your dad or uncle, or do you just let it lie? Um, this person says, my family seems to not want to discuss it even though we're at the point where multiple family members are older and taking on managerial responsibilities. So I guess the question is, can you ask? Yeah. So it's in discussions. Uh, my father is aligned with, I had brought it up several months ago, uh, and he's aligned with it as well as my brother. Uh, it's just convincing the other half of the business that owns 50%, right? Uh, and so it, it gets the question of, you know, shares, uh, who shares get not diluted, but who splits their 50% up 50%. 'cause my, ideally my, I have a third brother who's in, uh, investment banking, and ideally he'll come join us within the next seven to 10 years, but there's three of us. Uh, and my uncle has one son who's in the business, and he doesn't have any other children that will be joining the business. So when you look at it from that side, you know, how does, how do we split the shares accordingly? And is there a timeline for that? Obviously there's a, they have an exit strategy in mind, but, you know, the, there needs to be transparency. And so, uh, it's something that we're in the process of doing for this year, is getting reevaluated as a business, uh, to see what it'll look like for future buyouts. Hmm. Okay. So at least the di discussion is in process and not, not a Problem. It's in process, but it's moving extremely slow. So your advice might be patience. Yeah, I mean, as long as, yeah. Um, I'd say, you know, get other family members aligned with the direction of where you want the business to go, and just see that you're here, reiterate to them that you're here for the long haul, um, and that you wanna be compensated or, you know, you want skin in the game. And I think, I, I can't say for certain, but I, I think my mindset about the business would change drastically, uh, from an employee to an owner or at least a shareholder. Uh, I would probably look at what I do on a daily basis, completely different. Okay. Have a sequence of questions that are interrelated here. First of all, do either of you report to non-family? Second of all, how often do you go to your dad or parents for advice or feedback? Sure. Um, I do report to our CFO, um, who now leads the day-to-Day, uh, business activities. Uh, I've never reported directly to my dad, which I think was, uh, by design and, uh, was a good structure. Um, and sorry, what was the second question? Um, how often do you feel comfortable going to your dad or I any parent or relative for feedback? Um, or are you trying to avoid that? No, I, I have daily conversations with my dad, especially now that he's not in the office. Um, so just keeping him up to speed on everything we're doing. Um, and then my mom's been fantastic just, uh, since she, you know, married into the, the family business as well, um, and understands, um, you know, what comes with that. So she's been a great guide, especially since I was recently married. Okay. And how about you Griffin? Um, so I report directly to my father, um, and for advice, um, you know, him and I speak every single day. Um, there probably isn't a day or two days that goes by that that goes by, that we either aren't talking about work or nuances of life or, or our vision. Um, so we talked quite a bit. And the same thing, uh, my mother, she grew up in a family business. Uh, she was G six. Unfortunately, the business doesn't exist anymore, but she kind of understands a lot of the challenges that we face as a family business. So just, uh, having the ability to go, go to somebody that, you know, can just share experiences or just has sympathy or, or, or whatever I'm looking for that day, um, she's able to provide. Excellent. And then let's talk mentoring. Uh, you, you did discuss a little bit about some of the, the groups that you use, but do you have mentors within the company? Do you look to family for mentoring? Do, do, do either of you have what would be considered a coach, whether formal or informal? I'm, I'm actually exploring the coach, um, dynamic right now. So, um, it's been interesting. I'm learning a lot. There are a lot of family business coaches out there. Um, I know, like for instance, the Family Business Consulting Group. Um, that's a great resource. Um, and then I've actually just found mentors here locally in Nashville, um, in the family business and family office communities. Um, actually one of our independent board members. Um, I met him initially, he was just a great mentor for several years, and, um, I decided to, uh, make the push to bring him on board to serve on our board. Uh, for myself, I, I had a mentor when I was on the sales side. It was a, an individual that had scaled a, uh, furniture company that was a family business ironically as well. And then he had exited. Um, but I, I kind of really leaned on him when I was in that sales development stage. Uh, and now I'm using a, an executive business coach that I've been working with for about four years. Uh, and it's been, it's been very helpful. And ironically, luckily he lives not far from our office, so, uh, instead of having to set up times, it's, you know, a lot of those things are coffees in the morning or drinks at, in the afternoon. So the, both of those have been very, uh, beneficial for myself. Excellent. I just sent another poll out, uh, for people to answer. Zach, do you have questions? I I only have about a hundred here from the Audience. Sure, yeah. One of the things I was thinking of, uh, you know, I, I'm coming from the legal industry that I covered for 16 years, and one of the biggest issues in the legal industry is succession planning. Um, in part because it's, a lot of times lawyers don't even think about who it is that they would trust to pass on their clients or pass on leadership roles. Uh, and then from there it's actually getting the process in motion. So I'm curious for, for you guys where your trajectory in the company is maybe a little bit more clear. Are you already thinking about building your own teams? I think you mentioned that earlier, grant building your own teams, figuring out the people that you trust and, and sort of the early stages of your own succession planning. Um, even though obviously, you know, retirement I would imagine is pretty far in the future for both of you, but are you already kind of in that mindset of, of getting your people? I am, um, uh, whether it's just peers I've met here in Nashville, or, uh, folks I've met in, uh, undergrad or graduate school. Um, so just keeping that, uh, line of communication open. Um, and yeah, I think it's, everything's very slow moving, but I think, you know, within the next five to seven years, I'd like to have a lot of that set up. The, the saying goes, you know, higher, slow, fire, fast. Uh, so we do a lot of due diligence when we bring in, you know, senior leaders within our organization. And so, uh, right now there is no openings, uh, or offerings for senior leadership. And, but there will be, um, as a lot of our senior leaders have been here for a significant amount of time, and it's, you know, not burning any bridges and keeping candidates, you know, in the loop, uh, as well as, you know, just consistent conversations with individuals within our industry. Uh, for better or for worse, within our industry, there's been a lot of, uh, PE action. And so a lot of companies are getting bought up right now, which means there's gonna be a lot of turnover within those senior leadership. So we, we definitely have our eyes open and within the next couple years, I'd say, uh, we're gonna have to pull the trigger on a few new employees. Yeah, Zach, and going off that I've, I've noticed, um, so I, I stay fairly active, um, with, uh, wake Forest University where I went for undergrad, um, and, uh, speak a lot with, um, folks in the, the business program or that are interested in real estate. Um, and a lot more people I've noticed are interested in working for family businesses or family offices, um, which was not the case, I think, um, at least when I was an undergrad 10 years ago. So I think that's, uh, very promising. Hmm, Absolutely. And Grant, you, you also mentioned the, the mentorship program for the, the sons and and daughters of some of the owners, right. Can you just talk a little bit more about that and, and how that's been going and, and sort of any feedback that you guys are getting from that program? Because I think that's really interesting to get people Just like the, the rising gen, like peer network, that, that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Um, it's been great. So, um, so Fox Family Office Exchange, they, they hold, um, they hold events throughout the year, uh, if you remember. And, um, usually they're held in different cities like Denver, Chicago, New York, et cetera. And, uh, you just kind of come together for a few days and they're all people in their twenties and thirties who are either working for the family business or, um, created their own, uh, career elsewhere. So, um, there is a moderator, there is kind of a theme, um, but it's just really beneficial 'cause you have open dialogue, everybody's honest and transparent, um, and you talk about a lot of things that, uh, we Griffin and I cannot talk about with our, whether it's our significant others or our, our friends or some family members even. Um, and so I've, I've found it to be hugely beneficial. Um, and then the other one that I mentioned, the Family Business consulting group, um, that's once a month and, uh, we just get on a Zoom for two hours and, um, they call it like a hot seat. So each, there, I think there's 12 different people in our, uh, peer group. And each, um, each month one person, uh, is on the hot seat and they just bring up something that's on their mind, um, whether it's succession or, you know, they just join the family business and, um, they explain their situation and then ask for feedback. And, um, anyways, it's just something I've, I've been unable to find anywhere else. Um, and I think there's more and more of those opportunities out there, hopefully that explains Yeah, no, absolutely. And it, it makes a lot of sense that being able to talk to other people who are dealing with similar issues that you might be dealing with. And like you said, it's not the type of thing you can talk about with your, your spouse or within your, your company. I would imagine that's very, you know, therapeutic, but also also, uh, you know, instructional in a way to kind of see like, okay, this is how other people were, like me in their own family businesses are dealing with these issues. Exactly. A couple of, uh, well, there's a ton of questions, but, uh, one comment, uh, which I found interesting was, I would not be able to work from my dad without having a personal coach and a therapist. I would recommend it 1000000% to anyone considering it. And then there was a secondary question that I found really interesting. Do you, what do you call your dad when you're in the office? Do you call him dad, or do you call him by his first name? I've had interesting conversations with others who do it both ways. Says this person, It's, uh, funny. I like when I'm addressing emails, um, and my dad's the only recipient, I just call him dad, but whenever I send an email and there's, uh, anybody CC'd, uh, I always say Mark, um, I don't know. It's interesting. Yeah, I think, I think I'm more used to saying Mark than dad, um, inside the office at least. So never really thought about it. I'd agree. I I definitely, uh, I definitely call him a Rob way more than dad. Um, but he's, you know, before anything he's my dad, before my boss. Um, and I, you know, sometimes I forget that. Um, but you know, it's, it'll never not be dad. Uh, and it's just depends on the conversation that we're having at that time. Yeah, that's an important point. You don't want to be embarrassed of your relationship, right? You've, you know, it's a real relationship, but you also don't want it to become something that other people become acutely aware. They're already aware, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, all righty. Anything, I'm so sorry. Could I just jump in really quickly and ask about that though, on that same topic, when you know it's the holidays or you're not at work, are there times when you have to make a clear demarcation, like, okay, we're not talking about work now, we're gonna talk about, you know, whatever sports or whatever it is that we wanna discuss and we're gonna sort of put work to the side and compartmentalize or, or not really? Uh, it's, it's twofold. Uh, fortunately or fortunately or unfortunately, our busy season is Q4, so falls within Thanksgiving and a few of our birthdays as well as Christmas. Um, so a lot of dinner table talk is business, uh, and so there's really not a day that goes by that neither of us are talking about business to each other, but we golf a lot in the summer times. And so that's kind of like our r and r just to get out of the office and decompress as, as well as when we go on, on trips or, or vacations or whatnot. Um, you know, there is business talk, um, but we do our best to kind of put that in the rear view mirror for a day or two. Right. That's great. Yeah, I think, um, going back to, uh, wanting to prove myself, uh, I've caught myself, you know, trying to force talking about business or share with my dad what's going on, especially now that he's not, uh, involved in the day-to-day. Um, and I have to realize sometimes that sometimes he, all he wants to talk about is, you know, sports or our family or something completely unrelated to what we're doing. So it's, as Griffin said, it's, it's hard to avoid and it's just natural. Mm-Hmm. Um, but, and then especially when my wife's around or my brother-in-Law, um, you know, they, they hear about it a lot, but I think they also wanna talk about different things too. I'm shocked. So, do either of you have advice for family members who aren't interested in being part of the day-to-day operations, but who are invested in the success of the business and wanna ensure that it's going in the right direction? How can, how can those family members participate in a way that that works well for those working in the business and the business itself? Sure. Um, so I, I think one of the easiest ways to get involved is if, uh, the family is involved in any philanthropic efforts. Um, you know, taking the reins on that, that front. Um, another way is, for instance, if you do have a, a, a board, um, you know, serving on one of the, um, the committees or asking if you can attend the board meeting. Um, and then I think just, you know, constantly, you know, talking to, whether it's the, your mom or dad or any of the executives in the family business or sibling for instance, um, just asking 'em what's going on, kind of, you know, maybe ask for quarterly updates. Um, but, um, I, I think the best way to get involved is on the philanthropic side or, um, you know, joining some other committee. Um, Grant took all the words right outta my mouth, so I I agree with everything he just stated. Right. Participate in the governance, I guess, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the best way. And like for instance, um, you know, you could spearhead like, uh, coordinating the family meeting if you have someone like that or, 'cause we tried to make family meetings, you know, 90% fun, 10% business. And so, um, you know, for instance, we went out to Oregon last summer and had a bunch of activities and really didn't spend a whole lot of time actually talking about the business. And, um, my wife and my sister and brother were, uh, actively involved in helping to coordinate that, Uh, on that topic, are spouses allowed into the business, um, allowed to work for the business or work in the governance area, or, you know, how, how does, how do spouses fit in or fiances or, you know, significant others. Um, yes, you are allowed, that was somebody we went back and forth, um, on with our, uh, employment policy. But you are, um, allowed to, uh, work in the family business, which I think is great. Um, and, um, you are involved, allowed to be involved with the annual meetings, as I said, and then, um, nothing on the governance side yet, uh, as it pertains to like board meetings, but I think we'll eventually get there, especially when, um, children are introduced. Indeed. How about you Griffin? Uh, none of us are married yet. Uh, so that is kind of, we will re reevaluate that when the time comes. Uh, when it gets to, uh, my father and my mother and my uncle and his wife. Uh, there's obviously in the case of, of a death in the family, there's, you know, uh, rights and things like that that get passed over, but, um, for the most part it's just through and through family business, not much involvement. Um, we do sue, we do some, you know, family trips as a whole. Um, but that's really to the extent. Zach, any questions on your side? No, I think we've, we've Pretty well covered it. Okay. Well, I I did have one more, uh, a couple, well, there's, there's a ton here. We're up to 58 questions and we've only scraped the surface of them. But Grant, you mentioned that, uh, college age business grads are, are, are looking to work for family businesses are more open to it. Yes. Why, why do you think that is, um, now more than in the past? And what do you think makes it appealing? That's a great question. Um, maybe it's just there's, I, this might be a poor example, but you see like shows like succession, I know maybe, maybe didn't paint, uh, family business in the best light, but, um, you know, that it, it's more out there. I think people were talking about it, you see it more in the news. Um, I think a lot of people are realizing that, um, it's a great career path and I think to griffin's point earlier that you're paying, um, market value for these positions. So, um, yeah, I don't know if that really answers the question. I just, I just have noticed that more people and I think the, the proliferation of family offices in the last decade, um, that really adds to it, I think too, Right? People are hearing about it and wondering what is this? And Yeah. And then just a lot of alum are getting really involved with their business school or their athletics program or what whatnot. And, um, yeah. Okay. And on that, I think, you know, there might more stability, uh, with a family business that's been around for 120 years or, or 47 years, um, that they see that the business is, has been here for a while, and that there's the 10 years pretty significant. And, and if the owners are transparent enough about the hiring process, uh, they'll know that, they'll kind of share, Hey, this is our vision for the business, and we kind of want you to be part of the, of our vision. Um, where some of these other businesses, you know, the, the CEOs or, or owners could have a different mind. They just scale the business and they exit in three or four years. Um, so, you know, it's, it's twofolds, but there might be a little bit more stability. Um, I don't know, but I'm just assuming That's spot on. Yep. Okay. So last question for both of you, or last thing. Um, what, what advice do you have to your peers out in the family business community, next gen family members who are asking some of these great questions? What, what are your biggest lessons learned so far? I would say it's okay to have tough conversations, um, be as transparent as possible with family members. Uh, even as difficult as those conversations might be, um, you're all in this together, uh, and you're also family at the end of the day. Um, so I, I would say those, those two or three things, Griffin said it very well. It's hard to follow that, um, yeah, yeah, reminding yourself that, um, your family has made it this far. And, um, it's really not about the financial side of the business. I think it's really about the, uh, you know, the soft skills, the communication, um, just human capital side of a family business, which really helps it to thrive and grow and extend beyond your generation. Um, and I know griffin's different. Every family business is different. I really found great value in working outside the family business for several years. Honestly, I wish I'd worked for more years outside the family business before joining. Um, and um, I think just really trying to prove yourself and, um, that's it. That's really terrific. Both of you. Uh, there are a lot of kudos coming in saying, uh, both of these young men are doing a great job representing their families and their businesses and they appreciated hearing your stories. Griffin, grant and Zach, thank you so much for a really terrific session. Um, I'm gonna go into sort of a close now and just note, uh, to everybody that we'll see you back here at 1:00 PM Eastern Time tomorrow when we're gonna wrestle with the, the, what it's like to work with siblings and cousins inside and outside the business. I'd also just note that if you know a terrific next gen that you'd like to nominate for our 2024 next gens to watch, grab this QR code or go to the Family Business Magazine website. There's a nomination form there for you to look at. And finally, uh, I would encourage you to join us if you can, uh, with your families at transition spring 2024. We will be in Tampa Bay, uh, from April 17th through 19th talking about navigating change in the family and the business. We have special programming just for next gens as well. Uh, with that, I just wanna say thank you to everybody, our speakers, and all of you in the audience today, especially for the amazing amount of questions. I'm glad you were able to join us and we'll see you tomorrow.