Working with Siblings and Cousins Inside and Outside the Business

Welcome everyone to the second day of Family Business Next Gen 2024. I'm David Shaw, the publishing director for Family Business Magazine, and I'm very glad that you're able to join us today. If you were with us yesterday, that was a really great session. There was a lot of questions, a lot of comments, and we look forward to the same today. Family Business Next Gen is a series of one hour daily sessions we're holding this week to address the unique challenges and goals of the next generation of multi-generational family owned companies. Each day we have notable next gen speakers in conversation style discussions, addressing key issues that all next gens face you'll come away with, we hope, new strategies you can put to use, and also some new peers to add to your networks. More than 700 of you have registered for this event, and we thank you for that. In fact, as of this morning, sitting around 7 22, so thanks for being part of this, um, family business has honored, uh, next Gen family members through our annual Next Gen to watch since 2018. And this is the list since 2018, and it's been our pleasure to highlight the strengths and achievements of those who will continue the legacy of the family business. So how does today work? There's time for questions and you can enter them at any time from your computer or device, uh, using the Ask a Question bar that's down below where you see the slide. Uh, the sessions will run for no more than 60 minutes. And to earn a Family Business Magazine certificate of completion, uh, you must attend four out of the five sessions this week and answer two polling questions during each session. We're gonna run those polling questions sort of as the sessions are going. So you'll see it come up, you can answer the question and then I'll show the results to everyone. Um, if you're in full screen mode on a device, you may not see those questions, so you might wanna come off a full screen mode, um, anyway, and we'll email those certificates, uh, to all who qualify after this week. And then this Friday, we're gonna have a, uh, final session. After that session, we'll have a Zoom meetup, uh, where everyone can have a chance to meet their fellow participants. Um, so for our second day, we're focusing on working with siblings and cousins inside and outside the business. Our speakers are Jake Velo, the Chief Operating Officer for Stu Leonards, Alexandra Justice Director of Marketing and Engagement for Doyle Security Systems, and our very own Abby Boyer of Family Business Magazine who will be moderating this session. So Abby, uh, take it away and good luck. Thank you, David. Um, now to start, Alexandra, can you please tell us, um, a little bit about yourself and about your family business? Yeah, absolutely. So I, I'm Alexandra Justice and my family business is Doyle Security Systems. We are about to turn 105 on March 17th. Um, and myself and my three other siblings. So four of us total are the fifth generation, um, of family involvement in the business. Um, I am the Director of marketing and engagement. And just for the company we do residential and commercial security and fire, um, protection services. Mm-Hmm. And we do some medical monitoring as well. Great, thank you. Um, and Jake, if you could please tell us a little bit about yourself and your business. Yeah, happy to be here. So, um, uh, my great-grandfather actually, uh, started this business. He was a dairy farmer about a hundred years ago, and then my grandfather opened, uh, the first dairy store in 1969. It was a lot of milk delivery before that, but Norwalk, Connecticut opened the full, uh, first retail store and you could see the milk being bottled right in front of customers and, and kids would love to watch it. And then over the years, it, it really grew, it became the, you know, New York Times called it the Disneyland of dairy stores. It's very unique 'cause it's just one aisle that you kind of walk through versus, you know, a normal grocery store. We only have about 3000 items versus, you know, a typical store of 5,000. So we really focus on fresh. Um, we're doing a lot of direct stuff from the farms and the fisheries and got a lot of local suppliers. And we've got 3000 team members as Fortune 100 PEs companies work for. So from 1969 to now, we've opened up seven food stores and eight, um, separately owned wine stores in Connecticut, New York, and New Jersey. And, you know, I started working in the business as a little kid. My mom would drive me here and, and, uh, and she'd get me all excited about it. I'd have to stand on a milk crate to see over the register. And then all through summer in school and college, I'd come back and cutting swordfish and roasting coffee and just kind of learned the business from the ground up. And then after I came back from getting my MBA, um, I worked at all the different stores. I, you know, worked in Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, um, and then recently last year, uh, promoted to COL. But it's very cool for me being in the family business now 'cause I have two young kids and I get to bring them to the store and get to see them all excited the same way I was. Um, and, and I have a brother and a sister as well. So, um, it's been a good experience, um, and, and very interesting working with family business. Um, and so now you said that you have, um, the brother and sister, do they also work in the business and do you have any cousins that also work in the business? Yeah, so I have, uh, yep, my brother and sister, my brother, um, went a different round, investment banking, and my sister works here and is in charge of, uh, human resources. And basically in our third generation, I mean, there was four in the second generation, which had my mom and my uncle Stu and, and my aunt, my other uncle. But, um, now there's 13 in my generation, but only five of them work in the business. Um, no spouses work in the business. And then, you know, everybody's about three or five years old, but the fourth generation, there's 16 of 'em. So it's, you know, it used to be a small thing we get together now. It's a big family gather. We've got the whole family there. That sounds like a lot of potential for, um, more cousins in the business. Um, that's great. Um, Alexandra, um, on in your family, um, do you have any siblings? Do they work in the business as well? Yes, so I have three siblings and we all work in the business currently. Um, and my dad also still does work in the business. He's not retired yet, but he did. Um, he's not the CEO anymore. So my brother has taken over. Um, he's been the CEO role since, uh, July 1st, so a little less than a year. Um, but my dad is still heavily involved, so we still kind of have two generations involved. Um, but for my generation, the fifth generation, yeah, there are four of us siblings currently involved. Um, and then what do you like about working with your siblings? Um, are there any challenges? Yeah, so I, I love working with my siblings. Um, I've always been very close with my siblings, even, you know, growing up and through adulthood we've all been really close. Um, we didn't really planned to all work together at the family business. I would say that two out of four of us, and not including myself. So my two brothers, they both kind of knew from an earlier age that they really wanted to be involved in the family business. And then my sister and I, um, we were never against it, but we were never really, it wasn't like in our long-term plan, we were kind of just gonna see how, you know, life went and what was gonna happen. So it's really amazing now that we've all ended up together and working together. Um, we also all kind of moved away from home for a while and then came back. So it just worked out really, really well. We feel really lucky that we all ended up wanting to work together and we really enjoy working together. But of course that that doesn't mean that things are always easy or perfect. I mean, we spend a lot of time, um, working on conflict resolution, um, and family harmony. So those are two really important things to our family. Um, I would say that, you know, all of that work is really due to my dad's efforts. Um, he was the only person in his generation and he's one of five kids, um, to want to be involved in the business. So it was always one person in every generation until now. So we're the first generation, um, in a long time to have more than one person involved. Um, and the last time that there was more than one person, which was, gosh, like the second generation, um, there was a lot of disharmony in the family and we ended up splitting the business. Um, at that time it was different than it is today. It used to be a detective bureau when it first was founded, and then, you know, it changed a lot over the years based on what the community needed. So it turned into, you know, armored cars, security guards, um, there was all kinds of things going on. So in that second generation, there was a lot of turmoil that happened and the company ended up splitting. Um, and so did the family. So my grandfather and my dad saw everything that happened. And you know, it's to their credit that you, we've gotten to a point now where the most important thing to our family is family harmony above everything else, and then making sure that we have all the things in place to protect that. Um, so we work with a family business consultant. We've worked with them for years and years, um, to make sure that we do everything we can to make sure that we can keep the business strong and the family really strong. Great. Um, actually I would, if you don't mind following up on that, um, when you say certain things in place, do you have any, um, do you have a family council? Do you have any family governance structures in place that do help, um, maintain that harmony? We do. So we do a number of things. Um, I would say it became more formalized probably when we were, uh, gosh, maybe in high school. Um, but we do annual family business retreats, is what we call them, where we take either a long weekend or a week all together as a family. Um, and part of that trip is always working with our family business consultant on some sort of topic, whether it's conflict resolution, having difficult conversations, succession planning, um, family governance, I mean stewardship. There's all kinds of topics that we've gone over over the years. Um, we created a family constitution. That was one of the first things that we did, um, when we started these retreats. And that, you know, included a lot of different things, um, including like our family values, which we kind of decided on together. And they're a little bit different than our corporate values, but they're both, you know, equally important to us. And that document, um, has changed throughout the years. Obviously now that my dad is in a different position and the four siblings have, you know, begun the process of taking over the ownership of the company, different things had to be in place, like shareholders agreements. Um, so there's a lot more that we've had to do in the most recent, you know, three to five years with all of those big changes. But there was a lot of prep work and I would consider, honestly, our whole adult family right now would probably make up our family council. I mean, we, we count that, that meeting as like a family council meeting and we go over anything that, um, you know, we're looking at talking about for that year. Um, and it kind of always changes depending on what's going on. Obviously succession planning has taken up a lot of our time in the past few years as well as the purchase of the company. So yeah, there's a lot of different topics and a lot of time has gone into it, um, and a lot of work and effort, um, from a lot of different people. But that's roughly how we've gone about it. Great. Thank you for sharing. Um, and Jake kind of backtracking a little bit to, um, you know, working with your siblings and working with your cousins, um, what kind of, um, challenges have you faced? Um, where are the positives in that, that you've seen in your family? Yeah, Is this being recorded? I still, I wanna make sure my cousins aren't listening to this afterwards, but my sister's office is right here, so I have to be careful what I say. She'll be listening. But no, I'd say it's, it's really fun. Um, you know what our family's done, you know, retail's a tough business. Um, but we've tried to make it fun. We do, um, trips to California and Italy and Maine and, you know, you gotta have pride in the business. And I think that's one thing that, um, my grandfathers, my parents' generation have done is like, make a strong sense. You want keep this legacy going, want to carry the baton on, you know, my grandfather risked a lot to build this business and we feel this, you know, sense of stewardship to carry it on, especially not just for me, but you know, for my kids to be in it. And, you know, I, he unfortunately passed away last year. He lived a great life at 93, but every time he spoke to us, he left feeling so inspired and committed and excited about the future. And, you know, they spent a lot to make sure we were not one of those 95% of third generations that go put short sleeves to sure sleeves or have to sell the business. Um, so I think making it fun and, and having that real sense of pride is, is a positive. Um, I'd say in terms of challenges, obviously hiring and compensation, you know, one of the things that they always say at Harvard Business School is fair isn't always equal and equal isn't always fair. And it's very hard for us because we have five of my generation all about the same age, but all different levels in the company. And so what we've really had to do and try to get proactive around this is have a career development process. I mean, when I first came back, um, to the company, I had to move twice the year I got engaged with my wife and I to, you know, based on, um, you know, where the, the job opening was. So our goal is to always hire on talent, um, not on last name. And so there had to be a job opening. You had to go work somewhere else for two to three years and get your MBA. And then not only did there have to be an open position, but you have to be the most qualified. And so, um, you know, we even had a situation where one of my cousins came back, um, said she wanted to go into marketing, um, and when a position was opened, she wasn't selected because the person hiring, you know, the, the VP of marketing felt there was someone else more qualified. And you can imagine how that went over with the family, not, not very well. I I created some tension for years, but I think from the people we have, you know, 3000 people in the company for them watching in, I think that's really important because they wanna see that it's not just, uh, your last name here. I mean, what we say is you want to be known in the business for your first name, not your last name. Um, so anyway, we try really hard to make sure there's no special treatment, everybody goes through the process, but hiring compensation is, is a really a, a big challenge. I'd say another challenge is how to turn it off. I mean, you're obviously, we all grew up together, but then you go to Thanksgiving dinner and then you're still talking about business and then you're together the next morning you're still talking about business. So even said this last Thanksgiving, let's see, let's have a Thanksgiving dinner and not talk about business. And that lasted about five minutes and somebody started talking about stuffing being too salty or something, but so, you know, it's a balance. Um, so there's a lot of positives, but you know, for that fairness versus equality, there's definitely some challenges. Questions, lots of questions coming in. Um, I wanna kind of, before you go onto the next section here, um, Alexandra, there were a couple of questions about your brother being chosen as CEO. Um, and so did, how did the family make that choice? And did all of the siblings agree with the decision, um, uh, there and um, what did that transition look like? Sure, yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. Um, so Jack is our CEO that's my older brother. Um, he kind of always was on that track and we are kind of lucky in the way that all four of us have very different interests and we kind of compliment each other in a lot of different ways. So we have different strengths, um, and different weaknesses for sure. Um, so we were all 100% in agreement that he should be CEO and wanted him to be CEO. Very, very proud of him. Um, he has been working at the company for, gosh, almost 10 years now, I believe. Um, and he has done a variety of different positions leading up to obviously where he is now. But he has been completely entrenched in every aspect of the business. I mean, he, I can't eat sleeps, dreams, Doyle security. So he honestly was the absolute best person for the job. He's doing an amazing job already. Um, and so yeah, we couldn't be happier that he's our CEO. Um, but yeah, we all have different interests and that just kind of is lucky for us. My sister is doing hr, so that was something totally different. Um, obviously I do the marketing and employee engagement, and then my brother, my other brother Eric, um, he is on the sales team, so he manages our sales team. So we were kind of lucky that it worked out that way. There was really no conflict as far as who wanted to be CEO. None of us really wanted to aside from Jack. So it really worked out really well for us. Um, but the succession process itself, to touch on that, that took a long time. So a long time in a, a large team of people. So I mentioned our, um, family business consultant and she is absolutely amazing. Her name is Lisa Stewart. Um, we've been working with her for a long time. Um, she initially had her own business and then Eisner er actually purchased her business and now she's in the middle of kind of retiring, but she has a great team. Um, anyways, she kind of brought in all these different people to help us with this process. So we have everyone from, we as the, as the shareholders now, the children, shareholders have our own lawyer. My dad has his own lawyer with my mom. Um, and then we've got, you know, financial planners, estate planners, like insurance people, tax people, I mean, you name it. And they've all been involved and it was a really long, and I think especially for my dad and my mom, the process was extremely tedious of figuring out all of the details because there is so much there and so much to plan, so much to unpack. Um, it's a lot of work and I think lucky for us, again, credit to my dad, we always had open communication about this. So we had been talking about it for a really long time. Um, my dad, you know, I said he is still not retired, he probably will retire in the next few years, but he really, it was important to him to be really involved while we all kind of started our journey with the company. Um, so he's been extremely involved and extremely communicative the whole time. So it's been a very, a very open and honest process where we've all kind of always been on the same page. Um, and thanks to the help of, like I said, the professionals that have helped us along the way, it was honestly a very smooth process in my opinion. Maybe my dad or my brother would have a little bit of a different opinion 'cause they were a little bit more in the trenches than I was, but it took a lot of work and years of planning. So there's a lot that goes into it. And I know, um, sometimes it can be difficult conversations to have, but they are really important to have and we're lucky that it went so smoothly. That's great. Um, just as a note, I'm sending the first, uh, polling question out to the audience. If you answer this in the next one, of course, uh, we'll credit you for being here for this session for the family business certificate. Question for you, Jake, um, since you're chief operating officer, but Alexandra, you can answer this one as well. How do you handle reprimanding and rewarding siblings? Or do you Yeah, um, that's a, that's a tricky one. Luckily, um, we've got, you know, the five that are in the business are very, um, high performing, uh, great people. Um, you know, but Stu has his two daughters reporting to him, his nephew, his niece there. So, um, you know, you wanna, you wanna try to keep that as transparent, um, and consistent as possible. Um, and then, you know, also add some third party to it. We have a career development team, um, that's made up of, of different people that either have worked in the organization or part of our board that are part of all, um, compensation raises or promotion. So doesn't, you know, really what you're trying to avoid is favoritism, because that once you get the roots of favoritism in there, it's, it's very hard. Um, but so, so anyway, you have some objective people involved with career development. You got family advisors, you gotta, um, or directors. Um, and then you gotta be consistent. You can't have one process for family and another process for the other 2,900 people. Um, so if, if there is an issue where, you know, someone doesn't feel their pay is fair, well we have a range that's, you know, that's been researched and established and, um, you'd have to make a case just like everybody else, or if there's an open position, um, you're gonna have to move there. You can't just work from home. So I think that's really important. 'cause I've noticed, even when I came into the business, you're kind of walking on eggshells a little bit and everybody's watching you to see, you know, not only can they trust you, are you gonna make a call to, to stew or something, but, um, you know, are you really gonna do it the right way? So I think luckily for the five that are in the business, um, we're pretty focused on that. Um, so there hasn't been any, uh, I think disciplinary things, I think compensation's always a tricky one, but you just gotta be fair and keep it objective. Okay, well, there are a boatload of questions about consultants and so on, but I'm gonna come back to that after the next session of this discussion. So, Abby, sorry for the interruption. Thank you, David. Um, now I wanted to ask another question. Um, so, um, Alexandra, how would you maintain unity as a generation, um, with your siblings? Um, especially as you discussed, you all have different roles and different interests within the business. Um, how do you, I guess it might be a little bit more difficult to have insider outsider dynamics, um, when there's only four of you, but how would you avoid that with your siblings? Yeah, so I think, um, we do a lot of things to try to maintain the unity and the harmony in the family. So one of them I mentioned before is our annual family retreat. So we make that a big priority. You know, every year we put a lot of effort into planning it. It's either, it kind of switches off, it's a long weekend and then it's a week. So we kind of go every other year. Um, we find a place we wanna go, you know, whether it's Cape Cod or somewhere local and we go. And it's really important to us all to spend that time together. Um, and it's not just about work, although part of it obviously is, but it's really about being together and having fun, um, and spending that quality time together. Uh, I also would say that we consider, you know, all of our spouses to be just as involved even though they don't work in the business. So they are heavily involved in all of our conversations. Um, in all of these family business meetings, um, that we have on our retreats, they're involved in those. So, um, we consider them to be just as important and vital in these conversations and decisions as, as anyone who is working in the business. Um, 'cause you know, at the end of the day, like Jake said, you know, we have the next generation as well. We've all, all three outta four of us have children, so they're part of the conversation, even though they're quite young now, the oldest is seven, so we've got little ones as well, but it's all, it all matters to all of us. So we keep everyone very involved. Um, but I would say another thing that we try to do, um, on more of like a daily basis as siblings, since we don't always, you know, work super closely together, um, which, you know, we, we do, we're always in constant contact, like we're always texting. We have our group text, um, even if we're not together physically, but, um, we also do a monthly, we call it like our shareholder lunch. So it'll be one month, it's just the sibling shareholders. And then the next month my dad joins us as well, and sometimes my mom. Um, but those are really regular meetings that we keep on our calendar. My dad also has one-on-one lunches with us, um, every other month or something like that. So we have very regularly scheduled, um, time together, and that's really important to us. We make that a priority. But, um, you know, I keep saying family harmony, but that's really, we kind of, I mean, like on the weekends, like we hang out too, so we're kind of always together, whether it's work or it's pleasure, like we wanna be together, together, we want our kids, you know, they're all the cousins hanging out and they love spending time together. So I feel like most, if not all of the things we do, because between work and home, like we just choose to be together and we enjoy being together. So we're very lucky in that way. But yeah, we, we definitely, it's, it's a huge priority to us. Oh, that's great. Um, and so now Jake mentioned with his family that, you know, at Thanksgiving one time they tried not to talk about the business. Um, has your family, uh, had any success with anything like that? Um, you know, trying to separate a little bit or, Yeah, that made me laugh because, um, we are the same way, Jake. I mean, we will say, I remember one time specifically my husband was like, Hey, can we not talk about Doyle just for like a couple minutes? And I was like, oh, wow. Like, sometimes you have to really like be cognizant of it because it's so easy. It's like you're so busy in your day to day at work that maybe you didn't get to even like talk to one of your siblings about anything. So it's so easy to fall into it. But we do really try, like sometimes we'll be like, okay, this is like a family birthday or whatever it is. Like, let's really try to not talk about it. Um, but you do have to be really intentional about it. 'cause it's hard. It can be really hard, but it is healthy to like take a break from it too. Thank you. Um, and Jake, you have a little bit bigger of a family than Alexandra. Um, you have cousins in the business. Um, what have you done, what had, what did your parents done initially to keep you guys together as a generation growing up? And then how has that, um, grown and evolved as you guys, um, got older and joined the business? Yeah, well, you know what's really cool is, um, at, at one point all four of our families, um, lived on the same street probably till we're all about 10 years old. So the 13 cousins and siblings, I mean, we literally just bike down to each other's houses and go to the beach together. We went really almost family vacations at least once, if not twice a year. So all, and then we all went to the same K through 12 school. Um, so just naturally we had a really good bonded friendship. Even my cousins were like siblings in some ways. Um, now our challenge has been, now everybody's their, at this point, late twenties and thirties, everybody's, you know, their life has changed and cousins that live in California down south and all over the New York City all over the place. Um, so our challenge is how do you, you know, we've had these strong foundation relationships, but how do you really stay connected? 'cause that's, that's the key. I would say the two keys is you gotta stay connected because a family's gotta have a common goal. I mean, I mentioned my grandfather really rallied us and inspired us around a common goal. You know, he's not here anymore and everybody's older and they've got their own lives, mortgage jobs and kids. So we've gotta stay united. Um, and we can't let these little family silos, um, join because you've got, you know, the four families that are, are separate and you gotta have good communication. Um, you know, I think you gotta avoid that telephone effect where the message kind of changes as it goes around. And then all of a sudden, you know, there's rumors are starting and there's surprises. So, um, you know, similar, we've got, uh, meetings and lunches every month. Um, we're even gonna do, uh, a big trip, um, up to a resort this June with all 45 of us. Even the, the little kids are gonna come and we're gonna try to make it 75% not business and then a little bit of a business at the end. But to keep that same bond we had growing up, we want to, you know, as we're even adults now, um, keep that going. And then similar to what, what, um, she mentioned, you gotta have structure. I mean, we kind of joke, we hate policies, but you have to also really like policies. And so we have Leonard, uh, family council, um, we have an outside business advisor and the career development team I mentioned. And what we're trying to do is just transition this next generation to slowly take on new projects and to be involved. So, because you can't just one day, zero to 60 hand the bat time, you gotta make that transition slowly. So I think that's a challenge. But when you have some people that work in the business, you've got some people that live in California that don't, you really gotta be understanding those three circles and that's the owner circle, the business circle and the ownership circle. And the more that we can teach about that, and you know, we've, GG gone to Kellogg and Harvard business, you gotta understand the challenges and not sweep 'em on the wrong, but then have some strategies to overcome 'em. Um, so I think that that's important and, and you gotta reinforce it. I mean, even we had a meeting, uh, last year with my, my 92-year-old grandmother and we were testing some new products and we, um, had her, there was this new thing called the pizza cupcake, and she tried it, it's like a cupcake. It's, it's a pizza, like in a cupcake. And she tried, said, oh, this is no good. I don't want this sold at the store. And Stu said, well, you know, we actually sold 200,000 of 'em last year. And she took another bite. She said, well now I kinda like it. So, you know, you have to have family owners that are involved, but the golden goose is the business. And so our goal is we want this to carry on to the fourth generation and be one of those few third generation that survives. We really gotta protect that business circle. So with the governance and building a common goal, I think, you know, we're on our, you know, we have our pitfalls, but we're on our way to get through. Great, thank you. Um, actually going off of that, do you have, does your family have a plan in place to bring the next generation, um, into the business and kind of keep the, um, comradery that you see in your generation? Yeah, I, I mean, well, I mean, I think, like I said, teach, teach, teach. So we're really trying to educate where, you know, we've sent people to all different courses and Dale Carnegie and not just teach about family business, but teach about our family business. So you, you know, to be a good shareholder, you have to be educated on the business because we're all gonna be making decisions. We have to really not only have a goal, but we want to get to, but you have to understand the business. So, um, that's why you, you gotta have bonding, but you also have to have a part of the meetings that teach you about the business. Um, the governance I mentioned, um, you know, obviously to keep that passion and pride, but you can't force everybody to be in the business. There's some people that are gonna wanna do their own thing and that's fine, but, you know, to make sure the people that are gonna be here are gonna be, um, you know, valuable. Um, but I think if you can keep everybody, you know, communicated, if you can build that trust and respect and that vision of, of, you know, legacy there, I think, um, it's gonna be some time before that fourth generation is comes to that age. But we can keep reinforcing that. I think that's what's, what's gonna keep the success going. Great, thank you. Um, and Alexandra, same, um, sort of prompt, um, based on your family and what you've experienced with your siblings, um, what are you anticipating for the next generation? Yeah, so we've talked about this as siblings a bit. Um, obviously we know and we can hear from, you know, all of Jake's stories. It gets a bit more complicated when you have like a cousin group. So we are anticipating that things could change and get more complicated with the next generation, depending on obviously who wants to be involved. Um, one of the things that we focus on so far is what age do we think it makes sense for the next generation, you know, of our kids, um, to start being involved in the actual, like, business meeting part of our retreats, our annual retreats. So at this point, I think what we agreed upon was like 16 years old, which we kind of just made that up. Um, when we were growing up, my dad started having annual meetings with us. Oh my gosh. I mean, for as long as I can remember. We would wake up on Christmas morning and we'd open our presents and then he would have a PowerPoint presentation about the business for us and like how things were going and what was going on. And um, and then the next part of that meeting was always going around the room with all the siblings and saying, um, kind of what like our current at that stage of life hopes and dreams were, whether it was, you know, we were gonna go to college or here's what we're gonna do with our career, or whatever it was at each stage of life. So, and if we were maybe interested in Doyle or not. So, and he was never pressuring us to be interested, he just wanted us to be educated like Jake was saying. So he educated us from a very early age. Um, he would even bring in like our COO and our CFO and our director of HR to some of these meetings to really go deeper into depth, um, on what was going on within the company so that we would always be aware and educated and we could make a better educated decision, um, of if we wanted to be involved or not, and what that would entail and what it felt like and looked like to be in the family business. So we've definitely thought about that and trying to figure out, you know, what age does it make sense for the kids to kind of jump in and start learning and understanding this stuff as well. Um, we do try to make sure, I mean, like Jake said, we bring them to the office like so they're very familiar with the office. And one of the fun things about our business is that you'll see our Doyle signs all around, you know, the community we're in, we're, we have eight branch offices, but we're all over, you know, upstate western New York, and then we're also in Erie, Pennsylvania. So the kids think it's the best thing in the world when they see like a Doyle sign. So they're, they'll be like, oh, look like that house is safe, or like, this business is safe and it's very sweet. Um, my daughter actually recently decided she's starting, um, a competitor to Doyle and it's gonna be called like witch security. So that's a whole other issue. Um, might need a non-compete for her. But yeah, it's really fun. It's fun to like see the next generation get interested in kind of learning what it is and what it all means. And like seeing your family's name in the community is a different feeling when you're growing up. And I think people in the family business can understand that that's just different and it's exciting and you have this sense of pride, um, that you get to grow up with. And we're really blessed to have that, um, you know, very privileged to have that. So it's definitely something we're thinking about. We're kind of in the process of figuring that out 'cause they still are so young. Um, but it is top of mind and something that our family business consultant is helping us with and just try to figure out Yeah. Like how to get them prepared and educated. Well, that's great and thank you. And, um, good luck to your daughter on her business. Yeah, Thank you. Um, and now Jake, I think, I don't remember if this was, um, earlier in this call or during a prep call, but you've mentioned about how close your stores, your stores are with the community and how important it is, um, that your products are local. Um, have you had the opportunity to take your next gens out, um, to, you know, see the, um, places where the product is coming from? Have they had any experience with that or is anything on the horizon? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, that's, that's part of what makes it fun. I mean, we, we went just in the last couple years we went to, um, California, obviously a lot of our produce is out there, pistachio farms and our berries and lettuces. Um, gone up to Maine, get on boats to look at all our salmon, went over to Italy to check out, um, all our wines. Uh, we go upstate Connecticut is where all our, our dairy cows are. And we just did a whole trip there. We even, you know, tried out the back scratcher that they cleaned the, the cows with. So I think, um, first of all, that's part of the education piece, but also, um, that's also where the pride, uh, and, uh, you know, purpose comes from. 'cause they're like getting excited about this is like the products that we're serving, um, not just our own families, but all the families in the community. And it's really good. It's fresh, it's a lot of times they're coming from other family businesses to have the same values goals as us. So, um, I think that that connection, I mean, it, we're lucky for the business we're in, um, is important. And then also we've like really encouraged, um, people in the family to innovate and come up with her own ideas. I was just mentioning before, my sister's a big, uh, Taylor Swift fan and she decided she wanted to come up with Taylor Swift cupcakes for the Super Bowl, and it be, it became one of the best selling items in the bakery. So just that feeling that she could have an impact on the business and it wasn't some corporate company where you had to send it across seven different channels and she got to look at the sales in the morning and see that they were selling. I think that's what, you know, keeps them really connected to why we're doing this. Oh, that's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Um, and I do have one more question, um, kind of looking at, you know, strengthening bonds among next gens and what you guys have done to not only facilitate that within, um, your siblings and your current generation, but with, um, your children and your next gens. Um, do you have any advice for families that might be listening on how they can strengthen their bonds? Um, Yeah, I guess, yeah, my advice would be to, um, I think kind of what both Jake and I have been reiterating is just making those times together a priority. Um, it's obviously really difficult. You, everyone's got little kids, at least in our family. Um, our spouses all have different careers. Everyone is super busy. It can be really difficult just to plan a dinner, let alone time for everyone to go away for a week or a long weekend. So we have to really, you know, make it a priority and everyone has to be on the same page. Um, and that can be hard. I mean, you know, you're splitting time between two families like I have in-laws obviously, and we wanna spend time with them. Um, so it can be really difficult, but I think you really have to make it a priority and be able to plan ahead of time. So we know, like I told you earlier, we do one week, one year and then a long weekend the next year. So we can kind of share that time with, you know, your own family unit or your in-laws or what have you. Um, some people have careers where it's more difficult to get time off, so that affects like when we can do the trips as well. Um, so we just really have to be, um, flexible and plan ahead and make it a priority. Otherwise it just won't happen, especially with little kids and busy lives, um, you just can't let the time slip away or let it pass without making it happen. Yeah. Great. No, that's, that's very well said. I agree. It's hard with her, especially, I've got two young kids and everybody else, I mean, between work and your family, it's, it's all your time sucked up there, but it's an investment and I think that's what we're looking at is if we really want this to work, we gotta invest the time. Um, I guess my couple of, my overall advice for that would be, um, you know, to focus on what are the little problems and what are the big problems. I mean, there's a lot of things, I mean, just in your life in general, but especially in a family business, you get caught up in these little things and you take a step back and he said it really wasn't a big problem. And so if you can get some perspective on, my grandfather was really good at that. He had a what's good book, and every day he would write down, um, what's really good that's happening because you can't get sucked into those little, there's gonna, inevitably in a family, business's gonna be a lot of negative things and disagreements and, and challenges, but you focus on like, look at this amazing business we have and we're so lucky to be part of it. So, so anyway, to put in perspective there, um, I think as I've said, you know, a few times keep your eye on the prize and focus on why we're doing this. And I think that helps with the little problems and the big problems. Um, I'd say ownership of a family business is a job. It's not a birth, right? So you gotta make sure that people coming in, um, for themselves, they really want to do it. But also that this isn't just something on their name tag. Um, you know, they're known for their first name, not their last name. Um, structure is your friend, even though nobody really likes structure. But if you don't get ahead of something and once you're in the snowball effect of a family issue, it's too late. So the more you can get ahead on that structure, um, and just to wear the right hat at the right time. And sometimes you're wearing the business hat and, you know, I might have a, a meeting with my sister that's a little more formal, and then sometimes you're wearing the brother hat and you can't wear both hats at the same time. Um, but I think if you do that plus everything, you know, Alexandra said, it's, it's hard. I mean, we kind of joke, working in a family business is easy as long as there's no family. But if you, if you can really, um, you know, realize where you're going, where the pitfalls are and try to stay ahead of it and keep everybody focused on that, it can be done. Wow. Okay. So a bunch of questions. Um, let's come back to the consultant oriented questions and Alexandra, how there are several related to that, but one was who made the decision to bring in your consultant and how was it budgeted for et cetera? Sure, yeah. So we've had a few different ones over the years and I would say it was initially my dad's decision to do that. Um, you know, I really can't give him enough credit for all the prep work that he did, but I would say we've had 1, 2, 3 different ones until we found our perfect ones. So it isn't a perfect science. I definitely, if you are interested in finding one, I would recommend interviewing multiple consultants and finding one that really gels with you and your family. Mm-Hmm. Um, we, we also make sure that the consultant is very in tune with the leaders of our business that are non-family members as well. So they spend time with people that are not family members, are family members. Um, they're kind of, i I, some people don't like the word like therapy or therapist, but they kind of are an organizational therapist. Um, obviously they don't say that either. 'cause sometimes people don't wanna hear that, but it kind of is what it is and it kind of is what people need without, um, wanting to need that. But we, yeah, we couldn't recommend it enough. I mean, it, it's, it's something that we budget for and yes, it does cost, um, a decent amount of money, but we look at it as an insurance policy. I mean, everyone knows why you have insurance, whether it's health insurance, car insurance, home insurance, um, you wanna prevent, you know, the worst from happening. And for us, having this family business consultant and having things in place like our constitution, um, our values, um, our stewardship plans, like having all of that in place and preserving our family, harmony is an insurance policy to us and it's worth the investment and the time. How about you, Jake? Do you use any, you said a business consultant, uh, are there any family consultants working with you? Oh yeah, family sim, similar thing. I mean, we've had many, uh, probably 30 years to maybe four or five different ones. Um, just, you know, people retiring. I think our last two have come from Kellogg, um, that school of business there. But, you know, in some ways, um, you know, therapist is one word. I might say referee is another, another word. But, um, you know, there's sometimes you start an agenda of a family meeting with 10 topics and you could spend 90% of it. You don't get past topic one. So you need someone there to really, um, keep the lines drawn, keep the structure, keep it going, um, and then you gotta make sure that they're very objective. Um, if it seems that they're favoring one side of the family or they, even if they're favoring the business more than the family. So I think for them to be trusted and if they say something to be, you know, followed through on, it's gotta be, they have to be objective. Um, so yeah, we've, we've done that. We meet with, um, her once a month in a smaller group and then every other month in a bigger group. But, you know, sometimes it's two steps forward, one step back, but I really think without one, um, you know, sometimes the emotion and ego gets in there, so you need someone that's keeping the team moving forward. So I highly recommend it. That's great. Um, I've never encountered this question before, but it's relevant, uh, to this whole conversation, which is, is it weird having a family business consultant, somebody from the outside to talk to about your family dynamics? How do you get over that? Yeah. Oh, that's so funny. Um, you know, what isn't life weird? I mean, all things are weird in my opinion, but I kind of like it like that. Otherwise it'd be kind of boring. Um, but yeah, you definitely have to make sure it's someone that you trust and that you feel comfortable with, which is why I would recommend like interviewing multiple consultants, um, until you find one that you like. Like I said, it's kind of like finding a good therapist. I mean, you're not gonna meet one therapist and say, oh yeah, I feel comfortable telling you like all my deepest darkest fears and secrets. I mean, it's something that you really need to feel out and have conversations with. Mm-Hmm. And, um, can it be weird? Yeah. So you want to be someone that you can trust and you feel will keep your information confidential and have everyone's best interests at heart. And like Jake said, not prefer one part of the family over another or any weirdness. So yes, for sure it can be weird, but life is weird, so we embrace it. Yeah. Well, and also, um, just one other thing too is um, it, it's almost like having a benchmark in a way because, you know, sometimes you're in your own bubble of this is the way we've always done things and this is how our business has been successful. But you get a good family business advisor consultant, typically they've worked with plenty of other families, probably maybe even some of the people on the call today. And so they can kind of benchmark or take a step back and get perspective and say, I've gone through this with 10 other families, you know, similar situation and here's how they navigate it. So you're not, you're not just in a bubble, you can kind of mm-Hmm. Hopefully get some best practices to help. Excellent. Okay. So this question came in very early on, but I saved it until now. And you know, Jake, you had mentioned fair and equal aren't always the same kinds of things and so on, but any advice for what to do when your sibling or close relative, let's say, but in this case, sibling is seen as equal by your parents, but doesn't have the outside experience or the skills in the business. Um, how should that person, what is your advice to that person who feels that equal and fair or not in balance here? Right. Well, um, it's, it's hard, but I'd say the sooner you can deal with it, the better because it's gonna keep perpetuating. Um, obviously that, that's why we're, I think both said that having this proactive governance and policies are important. Hopefully you can mitigate some of that. Um, but it, that resentment will grow if it's not dealt with. So, um, you know, I mean, we've got three people that are almost literally the same age, and their salary ranges are probably $50,000 different. If we just went in and made everyone the same salary, um, that would cause some resentment there, especially if their performance was different too. So, um, I think if you could be upfront and honest why we're doing it and that we're treating this consistently as we do with the other people in the business, but it's so much easier just to kick the can down the road and, you know, and how they do so much as a family member, let's take that into account. But, um, it, it's a problem weighing to happen. So I'm not saying it's easy, but, um, I could tell you from experience that, you know, a couple stories I didn't get into today, it's better to, to be upfront and deal with it versus dealing with it 15 years ago. Alexandra, any thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I would just add a couple little things. I mean, I completely agree with what Jake said. Um, we handle it pretty similarly as well as what Jake said earlier in the conversation. Um, my dad had set forth the different rules of joining the business, um, and we were all very well aware of what they were. So one of them was, you know, you had to get a degree, um, you had to go work somewhere else for a period of time. Um, and then there had to be an open position available. Um, they will not create a position just because you're a family member and you have to be qualified and the best person for the position. So very similar to kind of what Jake was saying earlier, um, and everyone is very, very well aware of this. So I've actually seen, and we don't have this, this is something I really wanna create, um, another family business that, um, I won't mention their name just in case they don't want me to, but they have this awesome document called Sustaining Generations, and it's this, I don't know, maybe like eight to 10 page document that really shows like from zero to a hundred exactly what it takes to join the business. And I think having that down in writing and what, and even as far as like, okay, then who, yeah, who would do your review if you had an issue? Like who would you talk to? Um, we have another rule, um, at our company where you can't report to family. Um, we do have some exceptions to that rule. I actually report to Jack, who's our CEO now, but for the most part, that's the only time it's happened. We don't report to family members because that can be really difficult. Um, but again, like you would have just all of those things laid out, so there really wouldn't be a gray area where if someone was coming in, whether it was a sibling or a cousin or whatever, and they, and, and in-law, they wanna be in the business. I mean, here's what you have to do and the steps you have to take, and it's black and white. I mean, if they don't qualify, there's nothing like, it would just be there in black and white, and hopefully they would understand that. But I think you really have to have it laid out in a way that everyone is treated the same. Um, we definitely, again, we don't treat family members any different than any other employee as far as pay, as far as benefits, like anything, it is all very, very same across the board. Um, and again, that started with my dad and came down to us. So I would like to even expand that further with like a document, um, stating it all in black and white. I think that would be awesome. But I think, yeah, you just have to be really, really clear in expectation setting. Okay. Well, and you've, you've done a really good job in your family of documenting things with the Constitution and so on. Uh, this question is always a good one. Do you have a code of conduct, uh, either of you for how family interacts with each other? Uh, either in the business or during family council meetings or on retreats? And if it's not a formal code of conduct, is there an informal one that is somehow agreed to? That was a good question. I'm trying to consider what we would, well, we, we would say is our code of conduct. I think, um, at a lot of our retreats when we meet with our consultant, we, you know, we start off the meeting with different reminders of, you know, everything being confidential. Um, anything like it being a safe space, so to speak, like you can share openly and honestly. Um, we've always had very open communication in our family, so I think that helps. But we don't really have like a code of conduct, I wouldn't say. Although we did, like I mentioned earlier, spend a lot of time coming up with what our family values were. Um, and that might speak to that, which, yeah, I don't have them like off the tip of my tongue because it's been years. Um, but a lot of it had to do with what was important to us, like family togetherness, humor service, like all different things. So I think we're all very aware of what's important to our family and family, harmony being number one. So I don't think we necessarily have had a written code of conduct, but I think we're all very aware of the confidentiality and importance of harmony And the yeah, the value of harmony. Right. How about you, Jake? Yeah, I mean, we do, we've got a long family constitution with a, um, code of, uh, conduct ethics in there. But, you know, it's like you got something on a piece of paper and then you have an issue with your wife or that you know, that you're not pulling out the code of conduct. That's probably going out the window there. But I think it's, it's the values and really, um, you know, our goal and my grandfather's goal is to, to never just use this name match. I mean, if you're here, you're, you're earning your way and you're doing, you're representing the business and the family, um, really well. And, and you know, that comes down to integrity, obviously, and, and good values, which our family blessed and brought us up with that. So, um, I wouldn't, you know, you definitely put some stuff down there. Um, but I think it's more of our, our upbringing that's really, uh, cemented a foundation of what does it mean to be a good shareholder and what does it mean to be a good family member. And then, especially now as their spouses and other people, um, you know, entering the business, they, they didn't grow up listening to my grandfather as much. We have to make sure we keep that message going for them. And that pride stays contagious even if they're not listening to them. So I think you have it, but it really just comes down to does everybody agree on the values of the business? Mm-Hmm. Interesting. Excellent. Well, there are, as always, more questions than we can ever hope to get to, but I would note several comments on a superb session. Brilliant wisdom from you two, um, and from your parents and your grandparents. So, uh, very well done here. Um, I wanna thank Jake and Alexandra for giving of their time and, uh, and their insights here. I know it's not easy 'cause I know some family members, some of your family members are probably watching as well. Uh, Abby, thank you so much for, uh, moderating a really terrific session. So I'm going to get us to a close here and just ask everybody to, uh, um, if you do know of next gens of this quality, Jake and Alexandra, please do nominate them for our next gens to watch coming up, uh, this year, that process, that nomination process is open right now and tomorrow. We, we did a lot of discussions today about family councils and, and other governance. We're gonna talk more in depth about the council and overall family governance with, with, uh, two wonderful next geners, including, uh, the chair of, uh, one of the family councils who is also a next gen. So, uh, please do join us, uh, tomorrow for that. And if you're going to be in the Tampa, Florida area, and we hope you will be in April, transition, spring is coming around again, and we'll be at the Grand Hyatt Tampa Bay, uh, talking about navigating change in the family and the business. So with that, I thank you so much for your time, your questions today, um, and also to the wonderful speakers that we've had. We'll see you, uh, tomorrow. Thanks again.

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