In this episode, we sit down with Corinne Burton, G2 president of Teacher Created Materials, who shares how her family built a global company rooted in a love of learning, balancing innovation with tradition through a flexible and age-inclusive governance model. We also chat with Transformational Women in Family Business 2025 honoree Karen Alko, fourth-generation steward of ABC Recycling, who reflects on her path through the business, her leadership in governance and how formalizing philanthropy and NextGen engagement has helped preserve her family’s legacy. And, in part 2 of our interview, Michael Kaplan, whose family founded Lane Bryant, discusses why choosing purpose over fear is essential to long-term continuity — and how clarity around mission and values guides the companies he builds, the partners he selects and the leaders he empowers.
Interested in being a guest or have a topic you’d like to hear us discuss? Contact host Zack Needles, editor-in-chief of Family Business Magazine, at: zneedles@familybusinessmagazine.com.
Don’t miss an episode! Follow Family Business/Business Family on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Guests
Corinne Burton
Corinne Burton is President of Teacher Created Materials and for over 20 years, Burton has worked tirelessly to ensure the California-based, family-owned company continues its legacy of producing quality educational resources to create a world in which children love to learn.
Burton’s commitment to her employees, family, community-outreach and the education industry is unprecedented. She champions better benefits, stronger training programs and encourages outreach throughout the company. She founded and implemented a company day of service where employees in thirty states volunteer to better a high-needs schools, as well as donate educational products to students and teachers. She has also created a fund that allows TCM to sponsor the personal passions of her employees.
Her commitment to teachers and students has her in classrooms observing, teaching and listening to the challenges they face. She is currently serving on the Association of American Publishers Board of Directors and is past-chair of the PreK-12 Learning Group. Her community involvement has also gained her highly coveted recognitions from Girl Scouts of America and AAP PreK-12 Learning Group.
From a family of educators, Corinne grew up in the family-owned Teacher Created Created Materials with a vision for quality education for all students. She began her career in the classroom as an elementary school teacher in California, where she fell in love with education. She joined TCM full time in 2000 serving in various roles: Marketer, Editor and Trainer prior to her current role as President.
Corinne attended the University of California, San Diego earning a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science. She went on to receive her Teaching Credential from University of California, Irvine and Master’s of Science in Computing and Technology from Teacher’s College, Columbia University.
Karen Alko
Karen Alko is the Manager, Community Relations of ABC Recycling, Western Canada’s largest scrap metal recycling company. Founded in 1912 by Joseph and Daniel Yochlowitz, ABC is a fourth-generation family business with eleven locations throughout BC, Alberta and Washington State.
Karen has worked in her family business for 25 years. She directs all philanthropic activities, leads ABC’s Indigenous Reconciliation Action Plan, and directs and supports the family enterprise development activities. She is passionate about ensuring that her family’s values live on, the business continues to grow and is passed on to the fifth generation and beyond.
Karen holds a Bachelor of Arts from the University of British Columbia and a Graduate Diploma in Business Administration from Concordia University. She is a Board Member of Family Enterprise Canada (FEC), and Ben Gurion University Canada, Metro Vancouver, as well as a past Board member of Vancouver Talmud Torah School. In 2018, she was named one of Family Business Magazine’s Top Family Business Leaders to Watch, and in 2014, she received the President’s Award for Volunteer Service from the Jewish Community Centre of Greater Vancouver.
Michael Kaplan
Michael Kaplan is founder of BryKap Holdings BHG), a holding company focused on consumer brands consolidating the $80B inclusive-size women’s apparel market. H has been an entrepreneur and multi company founder. Previously, he was the co-founder and CEO of Fashion to Figure, a leading plus-size fashion company for women sizes 12-26. Kaplan graduated from Harvard Business School and Brown University and held positions in the venture capital and financial space before his entrepreneurial spirit led him and his brother to launch Fashion to Figure as a single store they ran themselves for two years before expanding the business. Recently, Kaplan has been an advisor and investor in: the restructuring of Fullbeauty brands by Goldman Sachs and Oaktree; negotiations for a potential debt refinancing by a major US department store; partnership with a leading private equity firm to purchase a national specialty retailer and brand; investment in and launch of HYDRANT beverage company; investment, launch and expansion of Blue Stripes Cacao Chocolate.
Transcript
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We went to a couple of these family business meetings,
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and we came down with, we need a family constitution,
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we need a formal governance board,
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and we got to all of those things,
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and we ended up causing more issues,
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because we were trying to get to something
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that was gonna last forever.
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And then we went,
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you know, there’s only a couple of us right now.
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Why don’t we start with what makes the most sense
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for all of us now,
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and create the right organizational structures for today?
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And the business that we might be in 10 years
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or 20 years,
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let’s just make sure what we’re doing is adaptable
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and not set in stone.
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That was Kareen Burton,
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second generation president of Teacher Created Materials,
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discussing finding the right governance fit
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for her family.
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We’ll hear more from Kareen later in the episode.
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Welcome to the Family Business Business Family Podcast.
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I’m your host, Zach Needles,
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editor in chief of Family Business Magazine.
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In this episode, I also sit down with Karen Alco,
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fourth generation steward of ABC Recycling,
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one of Canada’s oldest scrap metal processing businesses.
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Karen, one of our transformational women of 2025,
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talks about navigating multiple roles
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over her 25 year career,
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championing her family’s governance efforts,
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formalizing philanthropy,
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and preparing nine next gens from age five to 26
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to understand their 113 year origin story,
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and what it means to be responsible owners.
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But first, here’s part two of my conversation
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with entrepreneur and former family business leader,
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Michael Kaplan, whose family founded Lane Bryant.
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He reflects on what happens when purpose outweighs fear
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and why clarity around mission and values
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shapes everything from partnership decisions
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to long-term continuity.
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Today, Michael is founder and CEO of Bry Cap Holdings,
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which buys and builds retail brands.
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Michael shares how growing up
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in a multi-generational enterprise
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continues to influence the companies he builds,
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the operators he trusts,
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and the owners he chooses to work with.
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When you have those rough relationships
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with family members and it’s all that infighting happening,
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it’s very difficult to take a step back
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and say, hey, let’s remember what we have here, right?
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And that’s why we talk so much about these
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values statements and mission statements,
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and just these opportunities to kind of,
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again, take a 10,000-foot view of what you have
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and realize that it’s more important than the fighting
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and the whatever disagreements you might be having,
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but easier said than done.
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Well, I think the ingredient is,
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there’s this old expression,
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I forget who told me,
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but if you have purpose greater than fear, right?
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Purpose greater than fear means
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that everyone’s aligned at this goal,
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and it’s like, think about that show Band of Brothers
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or any of the stuff we’ve all heard about,
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thankfully, in our society,
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we haven’t forgotten the courageous generation
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of World War II, right?
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I guarantee that to a person,
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probably everybody was fearful.
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I remember hearing grandparents and everybody talk about
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the drills in the United States of going under desks
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and all that stuff to attack the mainland.
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But everybody felt great purpose
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to maintain our way of life in America.
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I know it’s kind of campy to draw the analogy,
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it’s not quite as serious,
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but it is the same as business, right?
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Like, lots of siblings, lots of cousins, whatever,
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and maybe some people make more money than others,
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or somebody has a role, not others,
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and some people’s egos are bruised out of there.
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I mean, there’s a litany of issues that could happen.
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But if everybody’s unified in
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let’s serve consumers and maintain continuity here,
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you will probably figure it out, I would think.
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And I think there’s examples,
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like, you know, Von Marr is a great example, right?
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Most people on the East Coast don’t even know
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Von Marr department stores.
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Fifth-generation family business,
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like, I think, I think it’s a private company,
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I think it’s still over a billion dollars.
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Fifth-generation business,
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I mean, I’ve been lucky enough to meet Jim Von Marr,
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call him a friend,
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they got serious purpose there.
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I mean, they’re, you know,
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they have serious purpose in a business
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other people are failing at, that we read about.
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So, like, it’s, these things matter.
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And they’re different for everybody.
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They’re different, I mean, everybody’s purpose
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and everybody’s spin on it,
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everybody’s family’s spin on it’s different,
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because everybody’s family values are their own,
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you know, and their houses are their own,
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and that’s American.
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But the notion of purpose is gonna propel us
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more than our own, you know, baggage is important.
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Definitely.
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And so, to kind of wrap up here,
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you know, my question following on that would be,
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you’re more in this entrepreneurial head space now,
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right, but how does that lesson still inform
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what you do and the businesses that you work with,
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just this idea of, like, having a mission?
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It’s absolutely central to everything we do
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in the following very specific ways, Zach.
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And it’s a really shrewd question,
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which is, you know, if you grew up around that
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or were molded by that, but the business isn’t there,
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how do you still utilize it?
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And in our case, you know, in our case,
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I’m trying to meld experience and analytics
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with the best of business and business purpose.
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And to your specific question,
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how that manifests itself in each case,
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every business that touches what we’re focused
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on intellectually is not right for us
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and we are not right for them.
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Because, you know, I get calls all the time
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and these people will say to me, you know,
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this growth equity firm or private equity firm called
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and they’re wonderful firms with wonderful people
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that are indicative of America’s great capital markets.
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And that person is like, look,
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and I started this to be in it five years
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to make a lot of money and I wanna go.
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And like, that’s a good match.
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When we speak to somebody and they say,
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look, you know, I need help and I wanna change,
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but I love this and I love what I do.
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And I did it for this reason and I wanna stay here,
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but I wanna like kind of evolve what I’m doing and grow.
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That’s a good match for us.
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And probably not a good match
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for limited partner capital that is on a timeline.
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Right, I mean, part of the rules of the game
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in today’s capital markets and, you know,
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nobody can begrudge them, it’s just the rules is
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people that are professional money managers have a timeline
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and the business, whether the business’s customers
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or managers or founders want that timeline or not,
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they need to ascribe to it so you better understand it
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and sign up for it.
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So part of what I’m saying to you about purpose
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and mission and values manifests itself
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in who we can partner with successfully,
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if there’s empathy there and what we select and choose.
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And then it manifests itself with the capital partners
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that we bring to partner in our deals
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and the way we manage these businesses.
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It’s really naive for us to go into a business
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that already has like lots of investors
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that wanna stay in it.
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I mean, I suppose I could see a scenario
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where, you know, some firm says, look, you know,
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you guys have wonderful platform and tools
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and ability to solve this situation that we’ve got.
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And if you do that, you know, we’ll, you know,
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be on your side.
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Even a situation like that though,
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has to be conducive internally to our value chain, right?
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So truth be told, all the operators that I have
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that come into these businesses and are the value added
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are all from Lane Bryant or my old business.
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Now, that’s not a family choice or like,
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that’s not a, that’s who’s available to me, right?
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And by the way, they’re very much a players.
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But we have to go into situations where that resonates,
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right?
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And in some situations, it may not, fairly may not.
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So the way that I’m melding what we’ve talked about today
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with entrepreneurship is the choice of businesses,
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the choice of partners, the way we partner,
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the business plan, the management of the company.
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It’s really trying to be the best of, you know,
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what you learn in business school,
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which is a company’s just its people,
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it’s just its mission and values.
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I mean, there’s a wonderful guy,
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this guy, Jeff Solomon was one of my first investors.
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He’s been a mentor since I was probably like 21,
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very successful former.
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I think he’s still the CEO of Callen
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that sold to TD Callen.
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And I remember like, I was sitting with him at lunch
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one day and he said, you know,
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when he’s giving me advice,
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cause my relationship with him is built on him
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giving me advice.
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It’s very one way I feel badly about it.
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But he is, he said to me, he’s like, you know,
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running this bank, like the asset comes up
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and down the elevator every day.
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And like that’s his orientation,
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which is very similar to mine.
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So he didn’t grow up around 130 year old business per se,
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but if that orientation’s there,
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we’re gonna be good partners.
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We’re gonna work together.
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I’m not sure it’s a coincidence that he’s a mentor of mine,
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you know, with those shared values.
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So in short, to answer your question,
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it guides everything we do and how we do it.
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Absolutely.
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Well, Michael, I really appreciate you taking the time
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and sharing your insights.
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It’s, you know, it’s a really interesting career
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to be able to look back on a family business
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and learn, you know,
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obviously a lot of really positive things
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that you can take away from that experience,
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but also, you know,
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there’s some cautionary tales there too.
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So I really appreciate you taking the time to chat
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and hope we get to chat again soon.
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I definitely look forward to it.
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Read the magazine all the time,
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listen to you guys all the time.
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It’s really, really great knowledge sharing
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among a similar group of people, what you guys do.
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So I’m really thrilled to be here and we’ll talk to you soon.
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Sounds great.
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Thanks, Michael.
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Bye bye.
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Karen Alko is the manager of Community Relations
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for ABC Recycling,
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her fourth generation family business based in Canada.
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In this interview,
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Karen talks about the role she’s played
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in strengthening her family’s governance,
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formalizing its philanthropy and educating its next-gens
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on the business’s 113-year history.
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Hi, Karen.
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Thanks so much for joining me today.
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Hi, Zach.
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Thanks for having me.
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Absolutely.
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So why don’t we start with a little background
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on your family business
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and tell me how you came to get involved in it
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and what your role is today.
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Sure.
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Okay.
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So my family business is ABC Recycling.
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We’re a scrap metal processor, order and broker,
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and we have been around for 113 years,
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so fourth generation,
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great-grandfather and grandfather
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started the business in 1912.
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And I joined the business over 25 years ago
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and in a different role than I am in today,
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I’ve transitioned over different roles
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and currently I oversee our community relations
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and indigenous relations.
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Excellent.
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And so when you think about the work you’ve done
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for your family business,
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what accomplishments are you most proud of?
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I’d say number one would be spearheading
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our family governance structures
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and our engagement with Family Enterprise Canada.
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That’s our national organization
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for family enterprise in Canada.
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So we started working with the organization
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and getting involved 20-plus years ago,
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and I was champion that,
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so I feel really proud of that and the work we’ve done.
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I’d also continuing to honor the legacy of our founders,
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so my great-grandparents and grandparents,
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and ensuring that the values that they pass down
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remain central in our business,
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and we are a purpose-driven company.
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And then finally, our commitment to indigenous peoples.
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I’m really proud of that as well.
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Excellent.
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And you mentioned this at the top,
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that your role has evolved over time,
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but can you talk a little bit more
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about how that role has changed
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and how your place in the business has evolved?
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Sure, yeah.
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So when I first started out,
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I was quite a bit younger
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and just kind of learning the ropes,
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so I was initially part of our sales team,
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and so learning that part of the business.
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And sales in our business is not the traditional,
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we’re not selling, I wasn’t selling our product,
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it was we were purchasing, purchasing.
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So just learning that part of the business,
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getting a real feel for the nuts and bolts.
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And then I transitioned,
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I did work a bit in doing different administrative roles,
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and then did my brokerage department,
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which was really interesting
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that I learned that part of our business,
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which is a whole other ball game,
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and it’s exciting.
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And then for a period oversaw our HR,
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this was like before we even had an HR department,
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I was just kind of makeshift,
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overseeing the HR related duties,
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and from there transitioned into
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what I currently do is community relations,
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and I’m sort of our de facto family liaison as well.
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And so kind of like,
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yeah, like had my foot
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in a lot of different areas of the business,
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which I think over the years
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has given me a really good kind of understanding
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and exposure to the business and the complexity of it.
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And yeah, it’s been really an interesting journey,
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but now I feel like I’m really where I’m at
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is really where my passions are,
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and so that’s great.
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Yeah, yeah, it’s great to have
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that kind of well-rounded experience
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so you can get to understand where your passion is, right?
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The thing that you really gravitate toward.
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Totally.
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And I guess, you know,
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the flip side of that would be,
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the question I have is,
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did you face any obstacles along the way?
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But I would say probably everyone faces obstacles, right?
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So that’s probably a foregone conclusion,
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but to the extent that you did,
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how were you able to kind of overcome those?
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Well, yeah, I definitely faced obstacles,
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like you said, I think everyone does.
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I think for me, the obstacles were very, you know,
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specific to being in a family business,
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in that my experience is that
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I think families sometimes take more liberties
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in how they communicate with each other
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versus, let’s say, in a non-family business.
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You know, at various times during my working history
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in my family business,
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there have been different views
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on the direction of the business, let’s say.
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And so, how I’ve overcome those obstacles,
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I’d say in large part has been due to
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my engagement with the organization
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Family Enterprise Canada,
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and surrounding myself with, you know,
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other people in family business,
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whether they be family business members
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or family enterprise advisors as well,
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who have been able to provide support
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and expertise and knowledge
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so that it just makes it easier
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to like overcome the obstacles.
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I mean, it’s not like an exact science,
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but I think that there are a lot of resources
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and there is a lot of support out there
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to help navigate those challenges.
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And that’s what I’ve found
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to be the most helpful and useful.
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Yeah, I love that.
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You know, obviously it’s so much of what we do here too.
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It’s just kind of letting families know
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that they’re not alone.
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Other family enterprises deal with similar issues
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and it might be different in the specifics,
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but there are learnings that you can take
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from other people who have done similar things, right?
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Exactly, and like actually to that point,
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like even reading family business magazine,
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like reading stories,
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learning about what other families are doing,
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how they might be navigating the challenges,
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what kind of best practices are out there.
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It’s just, yeah, so it’s great.
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There’s a lot out there,
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a lot of resources and information.
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Definitely, and going back to the beginning,
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what did you actually realize
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you wanted to be part of the family business
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and what drew you in?
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Because as you know,
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speaking of learning about other family businesses,
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sometimes people grow up with it
399
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and they want to do it their entire lives.
400
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Sometimes people don’t want anything to do with it
401
00:16:57.350 –> 00:16:59.110
from the, you know, until they realize
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that it actually is something interesting to them.
403
00:17:00.810 –> 00:17:02.730
So I was just curious, what kind of drew you in?
404
00:17:03.790 –> 00:17:05.710
Yeah, I’d say like, you know,
405
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when I was starting from when I was quite young,
406
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I wouldn’t necessarily say
407
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I was like automatically drawn to the business,
408
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but I grew up with it in that not just,
409
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so the business is my maternal side.
410
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It’s my mom, her grandfather and father started it.
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And then my dad, also an entrepreneur.
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So business was just like,
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it was part of our family, our DNA.
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I’d say it wasn’t until I completed my graduate studies,
415
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I studied arts administration.
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So I have two passions, like art.
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I’m very passionate about art and business.
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And so the program that I,
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was an amazing combination of the two.
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And then one of the requirements of the program
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was to do an internship.
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And I completed that at the Vancouver Art Gallery.
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And so I was in this creative space.
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However, the work that I was doing
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was very business admin focused.
426
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And that was like, I think that was my aha moment.
427
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I’m like, you know what?
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I think I’d like to direct my passion
429
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and knowledge and skills towards my family business.
430
00:18:15.970 –> 00:18:17.690
So it was a bit of a journey,
431
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but I’d say that was the moment that it was like,
432
00:18:20.430 –> 00:18:22.810
okay, but this makes sense to me, yeah.
433
00:18:22.890 –> 00:18:23.850
Yeah, absolutely.
434
00:18:24.070 –> 00:18:26.690
And I don’t know what the picture looks like
435
00:18:26.690 –> 00:18:28.450
for next gens in your family,
436
00:18:28.490 –> 00:18:32.350
but if there are next gen potential leaders
437
00:18:32.350 –> 00:18:33.910
or folks joining the family business,
438
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what would you say that they need
439
00:18:36.270 –> 00:18:38.270
to learn about the business?
440
00:18:38.390 –> 00:18:41.370
And what is your generation doing to help them learn it?
441
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Right.
442
00:18:42.470 –> 00:18:45.430
Yeah, so currently there’s nine next gens.
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And what they need to learn,
444
00:18:48.090 –> 00:18:53.730
I would say first and foremost is the origin story,
445
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our history, is to understand how it all started,
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where we come from.
447
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And so the foundation and then the evolution.
448
00:19:02.010 –> 00:19:04.670
And then also obviously like basic understanding
449
00:19:04.670 –> 00:19:07.510
of what our business is, we actually do.
450
00:19:07.710 –> 00:19:11.810
And then learn, get a sense of our governance structures
451
00:19:11.810 –> 00:19:16.030
as well as I think what it means to be a responsible owner
452
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and what we’re doing now to help them.
453
00:19:19.210 –> 00:19:20.850
So that generation ranges in age
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from five is the youngest to 25.
455
00:19:26.990 –> 00:19:28.070
26 is the oldest, sorry.
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And we have started to engage them.
457
00:19:31.430 –> 00:19:34.750
Actually, most recently, eight of the nine of that gen,
458
00:19:35.030 –> 00:19:37.490
they were all together in one place in Vancouver.
459
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So we took the opportunity.
460
00:19:39.390 –> 00:19:41.510
We brought them down to our head office,
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our main location.
462
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We gave them a tour of the yard.
463
00:19:45.810 –> 00:19:48.830
We showed them our 100th anniversary video,
464
00:19:48.830 –> 00:19:49.990
which is a bit dated now,
465
00:19:49.990 –> 00:19:51.850
but it’s a great sort of overview
466
00:19:51.850 –> 00:19:53.710
of our story and history.
467
00:19:54.110 –> 00:19:57.310
We had all three of our gen three family members
468
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down there.
469
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We also, two of the G5 family members
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had worked in the business over the summer.
471
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They were doing internships
472
00:20:05.790 –> 00:20:09.050
and they spoke a bit about their experience
473
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just to give the other next gen’s a sense
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of like the different options there are in the business
475
00:20:15.290 –> 00:20:17.710
and what it’s like to do an internship.
476
00:20:18.250 –> 00:20:21.350
And so we’re slowly kind of introducing them
477
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in that way.
478
00:20:21.870 –> 00:20:24.430
And then on a more formal basis,
479
00:20:24.430 –> 00:20:28.750
we have engaged the family enterprise advisor
480
00:20:28.750 –> 00:20:31.630
who specifically our goal is for her
481
00:20:31.630 –> 00:20:34.830
to work with the next gen’s and to engage with them
482
00:20:34.830 –> 00:20:38.090
and to get a better sense where their interests lie
483
00:20:38.090 –> 00:20:40.670
and to really take it to the next level
484
00:20:40.670 –> 00:20:43.190
because we realized that that’s really important.
485
00:20:43.530 –> 00:20:44.190
And we’re a little bit,
486
00:20:44.690 –> 00:20:46.150
I wouldn’t say we’re behind,
487
00:20:46.290 –> 00:20:48.490
but given the fact that we already have one,
488
00:20:48.650 –> 00:20:50.650
few of them are in their 20s,
489
00:20:50.850 –> 00:20:52.550
it’s time for sure.
490
00:20:52.550 –> 00:20:54.370
Yeah, absolutely.
491
00:20:55.010 –> 00:20:56.030
All right, I love what you said
492
00:20:56.030 –> 00:20:58.070
about just learning about the foundation
493
00:20:58.070 –> 00:21:02.510
and the founding and this is what we’re about as a family
494
00:21:02.510 –> 00:21:04.070
and as a family enterprise.
495
00:21:04.650 –> 00:21:05.570
Obviously the nuts and bolts
496
00:21:05.570 –> 00:21:07.130
of what the business does is really important,
497
00:21:07.130 –> 00:21:08.850
but it’s also just about that history
498
00:21:08.850 –> 00:21:11.590
and kind of understanding where this evolved from,
499
00:21:12.110 –> 00:21:13.510
100%, yeah, for sure.
500
00:21:14.130 –> 00:21:16.030
And you mentioned governance structures.
501
00:21:16.210 –> 00:21:17.570
So that was gonna be my next question.
502
00:21:18.070 –> 00:21:20.930
What governance structures does your family have in place?
503
00:21:21.420 –> 00:21:25.310
So we had a family council to start
504
00:21:25.310 –> 00:21:30.850
and that has evolved into our shareholders group.
505
00:21:31.290 –> 00:21:34.130
We meet just the, there’s five of us in G4
506
00:21:34.130 –> 00:21:36.550
and then we have a number of policies
507
00:21:36.550 –> 00:21:37.810
that we’ve implemented.
508
00:21:38.230 –> 00:21:39.850
So like a family employment policy,
509
00:21:39.850 –> 00:21:41.290
we have a code of conduct.
510
00:21:41.750 –> 00:21:44.190
We obviously have our shareholders agreement.
511
00:21:44.430 –> 00:21:47.110
So those are some of the structures that we have.
512
00:21:47.110 –> 00:21:52.610
You know, we started creating them and building them
513
00:21:53.750 –> 00:21:57.770
back in about 2003, I believe, or slowly.
514
00:21:58.950 –> 00:22:00.810
They definitely need to be,
515
00:22:00.810 –> 00:22:03.530
some of them need to be revisited and updated,
516
00:22:03.590 –> 00:22:05.630
but we’re in the process of doing that.
517
00:22:07.130 –> 00:22:09.250
And I know that you’ve been,
518
00:22:09.250 –> 00:22:10.830
you’re involved in governance
519
00:22:10.830 –> 00:22:12.770
and you are also heavily involved
520
00:22:12.770 –> 00:22:15.610
in the 100th anniversary project, right?
521
00:22:15.610 –> 00:22:18.750
Can you just talk a little bit about your role
522
00:22:18.750 –> 00:22:21.790
in governance and also your work in helping,
523
00:22:21.850 –> 00:22:22.930
like we were just talking about,
524
00:22:23.130 –> 00:22:26.330
to preserve the history and kind of pass all of that
525
00:22:26.330 –> 00:22:29.190
along to the next generation and the current generation?
526
00:22:29.830 –> 00:22:30.610
Sure, yeah.
527
00:22:30.730 –> 00:22:33.690
So I’d say, yeah, I would call myself the champion,
528
00:22:33.750 –> 00:22:34.890
the family business champion.
529
00:22:35.270 –> 00:22:36.790
I mean, like I mentioned
530
00:22:36.790 –> 00:22:38.510
at the beginning of our conversation,
531
00:22:38.810 –> 00:22:42.090
I spearheaded our initial involvement
532
00:22:42.090 –> 00:22:43.970
with Family Enterprise Canada
533
00:22:43.970 –> 00:22:48.210
and when we started to work with a family enterprise advisor
534
00:22:48.210 –> 00:22:52.370
and just getting more intentional about that
535
00:22:52.370 –> 00:22:55.190
and then slowly establishing
536
00:22:55.190 –> 00:22:56.750
some of the governance structures.
537
00:22:57.210 –> 00:22:59.570
So I’ve been heavily involved with that,
538
00:22:59.650 –> 00:23:01.270
I’d say, and the champion.
539
00:23:01.790 –> 00:23:03.790
And I’m really passionate about it.
540
00:23:03.910 –> 00:23:06.550
And I currently, I sit on the board
541
00:23:06.550 –> 00:23:08.610
for Family Enterprise Canada, the national board.
542
00:23:08.830 –> 00:23:10.710
So I also give back
543
00:23:10.710 –> 00:23:13.390
to the family enterprise community in that sense,
544
00:23:13.390 –> 00:23:17.410
but then, you know, take what I learned
545
00:23:17.410 –> 00:23:19.670
from the organization and bring it back to my family.
546
00:23:20.290 –> 00:23:24.450
And then, you know, specifically around the origin story
547
00:23:24.450 –> 00:23:28.530
and the 100th anniversary that we celebrated.
548
00:23:28.590 –> 00:23:31.510
Now it’s been 13 years,
549
00:23:32.210 –> 00:23:36.430
but that was a great opportunity for us to,
550
00:23:36.470 –> 00:23:39.050
as a family, learn more about the history
551
00:23:39.050 –> 00:23:42.250
and document it and celebrate that.
552
00:23:42.250 –> 00:23:46.230
So we produced the video and then we also produced a book,
553
00:23:46.590 –> 00:23:49.430
which is actually an amazing story,
554
00:23:49.610 –> 00:23:52.350
like tangible story that we can share
555
00:23:52.350 –> 00:23:53.710
with others and with the family.
556
00:23:53.750 –> 00:23:56.350
And I led that project as well.
557
00:23:56.370 –> 00:23:58.550
So that was really a fun thing to do
558
00:23:58.550 –> 00:24:02.230
and it’s a great legacy piece to have.
559
00:24:03.250 –> 00:24:03.990
Yeah, absolutely.
560
00:24:06.290 –> 00:24:08.130
And then, you know, my next question would be,
561
00:24:08.270 –> 00:24:10.650
what is your vision for the future
562
00:24:10.650 –> 00:24:11.610
of your family business?
563
00:24:11.610 –> 00:24:13.910
And it doesn’t just have to be your personal vision,
564
00:24:13.950 –> 00:24:15.210
but just in general, you know,
565
00:24:15.210 –> 00:24:17.290
what does the family kind of hope for
566
00:24:17.290 –> 00:24:19.610
and envision going forward?
567
00:24:20.030 –> 00:24:20.090
Right.
568
00:24:20.390 –> 00:24:22.990
Well, the vision of our generation
569
00:24:22.990 –> 00:24:26.310
is that the business remains family-owned.
570
00:24:26.710 –> 00:24:28.250
So that’s number one.
571
00:24:30.010 –> 00:24:34.890
My vision is that the business remains
572
00:24:34.890 –> 00:24:38.010
very purpose-driven and values-based,
573
00:24:38.530 –> 00:24:42.290
because that, to me, is what differentiates us.
574
00:24:42.770 –> 00:24:45.650
And I think that that’s what drives me
575
00:24:45.650 –> 00:24:49.030
and I hope that that’s what drives the next generation.
576
00:24:49.650 –> 00:24:51.670
And I would like to see the business,
577
00:24:51.950 –> 00:24:54.950
I would hope the business remains like a force for good
578
00:24:55.590 –> 00:24:58.910
and, you know, not just generates profit,
579
00:24:59.810 –> 00:25:01.830
but makes a difference in the world,
580
00:25:01.910 –> 00:25:03.190
because I think that that’s,
581
00:25:03.950 –> 00:25:07.230
you know, that’s what our founders believed in
582
00:25:07.230 –> 00:25:08.910
and maybe in a different way,
583
00:25:09.070 –> 00:25:11.570
they always believed in giving back to the community.
584
00:25:11.670 –> 00:25:14.330
And I think that we can give that legacy,
585
00:25:14.590 –> 00:25:16.430
but maybe even take it to another level.
586
00:25:16.950 –> 00:25:17.050
Absolutely.
587
00:25:17.990 –> 00:25:19.610
And so just to wrap up here,
588
00:25:20.050 –> 00:25:24.270
I think a good place to end is what advice do you have
589
00:25:24.270 –> 00:25:26.990
for women who want to make a difference
590
00:25:26.990 –> 00:25:28.570
in their family businesses?
591
00:25:29.250 –> 00:25:32.410
Well, I’d say first and foremost,
592
00:25:32.410 –> 00:25:36.190
I guess just figure out what difference you wanna make
593
00:25:36.190 –> 00:25:40.450
because, you know, there’s a lot of potential
594
00:25:40.450 –> 00:25:41.870
in terms of making a difference.
595
00:25:42.190 –> 00:25:46.210
It could be making a difference as being the CEO
596
00:25:46.210 –> 00:25:48.810
and growing the company to a certain level
597
00:25:48.810 –> 00:25:50.970
or it could be making a difference
598
00:25:50.970 –> 00:25:53.570
in terms of family governance or philanthropy
599
00:25:53.570 –> 00:25:57.090
or there’s a lot of different, you know, opportunities.
600
00:25:57.250 –> 00:25:58.930
And then once you’ve figured out
601
00:25:58.930 –> 00:25:59.710
the difference you wanna make,
602
00:25:59.710 –> 00:26:00.890
like where your passion lies,
603
00:26:01.030 –> 00:26:04.130
I’d say a few things, especially as a woman,
604
00:26:04.590 –> 00:26:05.790
this has been my experience,
605
00:26:05.790 –> 00:26:09.530
to surround yourself with supportive people,
606
00:26:09.730 –> 00:26:12.710
a supportive network, people who are champions.
607
00:26:12.970 –> 00:26:15.810
And then I guess also take advantage of opportunities
608
00:26:15.810 –> 00:26:18.870
to learn and to grow and like structure yourself.
609
00:26:18.990 –> 00:26:21.750
And finally, like believe in yourself
610
00:26:21.750 –> 00:26:24.250
because I think women,
611
00:26:24.410 –> 00:26:26.610
and I also like coming from a business
612
00:26:26.610 –> 00:26:28.110
that’s very nail-dominated.
613
00:26:28.690 –> 00:26:30.790
It’s even, there’s been extra challenges,
614
00:26:30.830 –> 00:26:33.030
but just keep believing in yourself
615
00:26:33.030 –> 00:26:35.110
and the work that you do and that it’s important.
616
00:26:37.290 –> 00:26:38.330
That’s fantastic.
617
00:26:38.710 –> 00:26:39.890
Karen, congratulations.
618
00:26:40.290 –> 00:26:41.770
First of all, it’s so well-deserved.
619
00:26:42.070 –> 00:26:43.550
And second of all, just thank you so much
620
00:26:43.550 –> 00:26:46.750
for taking the time to chat and share your story
621
00:26:46.750 –> 00:26:47.370
and your insights.
622
00:26:47.490 –> 00:26:48.330
I really appreciate it.
623
00:26:48.590 –> 00:26:49.270
Oh, thanks, Sock.
624
00:26:49.290 –> 00:26:50.250
It’s been really fun.
625
00:26:50.790 –> 00:26:51.970
I appreciate that.
626
00:26:56.740 –> 00:26:58.920
Kareen Burton is the second generation president
627
00:26:58.920 –> 00:27:00.340
of Teacher Created Materials,
628
00:27:00.740 –> 00:27:03.660
a nearly 50-year-old educational publishing business
629
00:27:03.660 –> 00:27:04.660
founded by her mother.
630
00:27:05.280 –> 00:27:07.620
Kareen shares how her family built a global company
631
00:27:07.620 –> 00:27:09.080
rooted in a love of learning,
632
00:27:09.480 –> 00:27:11.460
how they balance innovation with tradition
633
00:27:11.460 –> 00:27:14.500
and how their flexible age-inclusive governance model
634
00:27:14.500 –> 00:27:16.400
is helping prepare the next generation
635
00:27:16.400 –> 00:27:17.700
of owners and leaders.
636
00:27:20.020 –> 00:27:21.720
Hi, Kareen, thanks for joining me today.
637
00:27:22.320 –> 00:27:23.200
Hi, Zach, thank you.
638
00:27:23.240 –> 00:27:24.420
Thanks for having me.
639
00:27:25.160 –> 00:27:25.540
Absolutely.
640
00:27:25.700 –> 00:27:28.600
Let’s talk about how Teacher Created Materials
641
00:27:28.600 –> 00:27:29.160
got started.
642
00:27:29.220 –> 00:27:30.720
How did the company get started?
643
00:27:30.720 –> 00:27:32.820
And then how did you personally become involved
644
00:27:32.820 –> 00:27:33.780
in the family business?
645
00:27:34.780 –> 00:27:36.540
Well, it’s one of my favorite things to talk about.
646
00:27:37.240 –> 00:27:38.760
We actually, Teacher Created Materials,
647
00:27:38.760 –> 00:27:40.740
got started about 50 years ago by my mom.
648
00:27:40.780 –> 00:27:42.040
She was a classroom teacher.
649
00:27:42.580 –> 00:27:44.840
And she just really saw a need for teachers
650
00:27:44.840 –> 00:27:47.680
to have extra activities, to really engage their kids.
651
00:27:47.820 –> 00:27:49.920
And so she started writing books at home
652
00:27:49.920 –> 00:27:53.600
and would sell them to local teacher supply stores
653
00:27:53.600 –> 00:27:54.680
or to teachers.
654
00:27:55.120 –> 00:27:57.660
And the business just really grew from there.
655
00:27:57.820 –> 00:27:59.280
And so she even kept teaching
656
00:27:59.280 –> 00:28:00.820
for the first five years of the business.
657
00:28:00.820 –> 00:28:01.980
It was out of our house.
658
00:28:02.360 –> 00:28:03.820
And the company’s grown now
659
00:28:03.820 –> 00:28:06.440
that we sell into all 50 states.
660
00:28:06.440 –> 00:28:08.600
And over 90 countries around the world
661
00:28:08.600 –> 00:28:12.320
and develop curriculum for schools,
662
00:28:12.400 –> 00:28:15.180
as well as products for parents and kids.
663
00:28:15.340 –> 00:28:17.680
And so it’s just really continued to grow.
664
00:28:18.740 –> 00:28:20.200
And so I’ve grown up with the business,
665
00:28:20.420 –> 00:28:21.400
obviously my whole life.
666
00:28:21.620 –> 00:28:23.280
It’s my other sibling, I think.
667
00:28:23.660 –> 00:28:26.380
My sister and I both were very involved in it
668
00:28:26.380 –> 00:28:27.880
and have always loved the business.
669
00:28:28.520 –> 00:28:29.680
Didn’t have an expectation
670
00:28:29.680 –> 00:28:31.560
that we were gonna necessarily come into it,
671
00:28:31.560 –> 00:28:33.000
even though both of us have.
672
00:28:33.840 –> 00:28:36.440
I came in, I was actually an elementary school teacher.
673
00:28:36.500 –> 00:28:39.580
I taught in Liso Viejo, California,
674
00:28:40.160 –> 00:28:41.340
and loved teaching,
675
00:28:41.460 –> 00:28:43.940
and really loved teaching fifth grade in social studies.
676
00:28:44.480 –> 00:28:45.800
So my mom offered and said,
677
00:28:45.860 –> 00:28:47.640
would you like to come to TCM for a little bit
678
00:28:47.640 –> 00:28:49.500
and start a social studies division?
679
00:28:49.560 –> 00:28:51.880
So I actually thought I was coming for a little while,
680
00:28:52.140 –> 00:28:53.380
about 25 years ago,
681
00:28:53.520 –> 00:28:55.460
and developed our social studies line.
682
00:28:55.480 –> 00:28:56.260
And actually I’m coming out
683
00:28:56.260 –> 00:28:58.080
with a brand new social studies product next summer.
684
00:28:58.120 –> 00:28:59.360
So we’ve continued to grow it
685
00:28:59.360 –> 00:29:01.840
over the last 20 or so years.
686
00:29:01.840 –> 00:29:04.440
And then I’ve been running the business day to day
687
00:29:04.440 –> 00:29:05.360
for about the last 15.
688
00:29:05.460 –> 00:29:06.660
So I love what I do,
689
00:29:06.660 –> 00:29:08.360
and it’s a fun business to be in.
690
00:29:08.840 –> 00:29:09.540
That’s awesome.
691
00:29:09.700 –> 00:29:12.620
I find that in these conversations,
692
00:29:13.380 –> 00:29:15.660
probably the ideal situation is what you described,
693
00:29:15.660 –> 00:29:17.480
where you grow up around the business.
694
00:29:17.900 –> 00:29:20.740
You get exposed to it, you understand it,
695
00:29:20.740 –> 00:29:23.240
but you’re not forced to join it, right?
696
00:29:23.300 –> 00:29:25.340
And so it’s kind of like the best of both worlds.
697
00:29:26.980 –> 00:29:29.280
And since you’ve been around the business
698
00:29:29.280 –> 00:29:30.800
for your whole life,
699
00:29:30.800 –> 00:29:33.080
and I’m sure you talk about this in the business as well,
700
00:29:33.120 –> 00:29:35.400
what would you say are the key values
701
00:29:35.400 –> 00:29:36.600
that are sort of the foundation
702
00:29:36.600 –> 00:29:38.380
for teacher-created materials?
703
00:29:39.460 –> 00:29:41.220
So we have a number of key values
704
00:29:41.220 –> 00:29:43.760
that we look at not only in the family,
705
00:29:43.840 –> 00:29:45.700
but also in all of our employees
706
00:29:45.700 –> 00:29:47.440
and our partners that we work with.
707
00:29:47.800 –> 00:29:49.440
But the one that jumps out to me
708
00:29:49.440 –> 00:29:50.960
that I think is just really, really important
709
00:29:50.960 –> 00:29:53.580
is one of our real big core values is love of learning.
710
00:29:53.940 –> 00:29:56.180
The business that was started 50 years ago,
711
00:29:56.180 –> 00:29:58.100
the business that we had that I joined
712
00:29:58.100 –> 00:30:00.480
is so different than the business we have today
713
00:30:00.480 –> 00:30:02.540
and the business we’re gonna have probably five, 10,
714
00:30:02.620 –> 00:30:04.360
and hopefully another 50 years from now,
715
00:30:04.980 –> 00:30:07.940
but you have to love to learn new things.
716
00:30:08.420 –> 00:30:11.200
And it’s something that I think we really embody.
717
00:30:12.640 –> 00:30:16.080
As a family, we’re always going into schools,
718
00:30:16.600 –> 00:30:18.700
looking, we’re reading different books,
719
00:30:18.780 –> 00:30:21.360
podcasts, trying to grow and learn things.
720
00:30:21.640 –> 00:30:24.100
As a company, we look to AI,
721
00:30:24.400 –> 00:30:26.540
we’re looking at ways we can use any of all these new
722
00:30:26.540 –> 00:30:28.620
tools to improve what we do at TCM.
723
00:30:28.620 –> 00:30:31.140
And learning is always celebrated.
724
00:30:32.580 –> 00:30:34.920
And I guess one of our other kind of core values
725
00:30:34.920 –> 00:30:36.300
is that we like celebrations.
726
00:30:36.500 –> 00:30:38.080
We really like celebrations.
727
00:30:38.160 –> 00:30:41.480
So we try to have a lot of fun and celebrate learning,
728
00:30:41.680 –> 00:30:44.380
but as well as try to make it fun
729
00:30:44.380 –> 00:30:46.380
to come to work and enjoy what we do.
730
00:30:47.180 –> 00:30:49.700
Yeah, it’s such a great way to describe
731
00:30:49.700 –> 00:30:51.660
the purpose of having core values,
732
00:30:51.720 –> 00:30:52.800
because we talk about them all the time
733
00:30:52.800 –> 00:30:53.640
that you should have them.
734
00:30:53.900 –> 00:30:55.240
I think everyone does have them
735
00:30:55.240 –> 00:30:57.240
whether they know it or not, but it’s kind of like why.
736
00:30:57.240 –> 00:30:59.780
And it’s because your business is gonna change.
737
00:31:00.200 –> 00:31:02.720
We have some businesses that change drastically
738
00:31:02.720 –> 00:31:04.180
into completely different industries,
739
00:31:04.560 –> 00:31:06.060
but regardless, it’s gonna evolve
740
00:31:06.060 –> 00:31:08.820
so that the values kind of anchor everything
741
00:31:08.820 –> 00:31:10.620
you do with a purpose, right?
742
00:31:11.160 –> 00:31:14.580
Yeah, and I’m gonna ask this question
743
00:31:14.580 –> 00:31:16.360
as a little bit of a dangerous question,
744
00:31:16.460 –> 00:31:18.820
I guess sometimes, but we’ll start with the easy part
745
00:31:18.820 –> 00:31:20.440
and then we’ll go to the tougher part.
746
00:31:20.920 –> 00:31:24.500
What’s the best thing about working with family?
747
00:31:25.240 –> 00:31:27.600
I can see why that’s a bit of a dangerous question.
748
00:31:30.220 –> 00:31:31.120
But there’s a lot of things.
749
00:31:31.140 –> 00:31:32.460
One, I really like my family.
750
00:31:32.600 –> 00:31:33.300
I’m very lucky.
751
00:31:33.620 –> 00:31:36.060
I actually live even near my mom and my sister
752
00:31:36.060 –> 00:31:37.360
and we all work in the business.
753
00:31:37.660 –> 00:31:39.560
It’s fun to work with family.
754
00:31:39.640 –> 00:31:41.600
And in fact, this last summer was really fun.
755
00:31:41.700 –> 00:31:44.520
We have a internship program
756
00:31:44.520 –> 00:31:46.040
where we let different family members
757
00:31:46.040 –> 00:31:48.560
and even friends of the business come work at TCM.
758
00:31:48.620 –> 00:31:50.740
And it’s a lot of fun when my kids, my nieces,
759
00:31:50.880 –> 00:31:53.620
my nephews and cousins are all around the business.
760
00:31:54.060 –> 00:31:55.780
So I think that’s part of it.
761
00:31:55.780 –> 00:31:56.820
I do really enjoy it.
762
00:31:56.880 –> 00:31:57.580
I’m very lucky.
763
00:31:57.860 –> 00:32:01.080
I’ve learned a lot from my mom, my grandparents,
764
00:32:01.260 –> 00:32:02.240
many of my aunts and uncles
765
00:32:02.240 –> 00:32:04.600
that have worked at the business for a long time.
766
00:32:05.240 –> 00:32:07.180
So I think if you like your family,
767
00:32:07.260 –> 00:32:09.360
it’s another extension of it.
768
00:32:09.520 –> 00:32:11.700
And I’m lucky I’m one of those people
769
00:32:11.700 –> 00:32:13.340
that really do enjoy being around them.
770
00:32:14.620 –> 00:32:16.740
And now the more dangerous aspect of that question.
771
00:32:17.080 –> 00:32:18.400
What’s the most difficult thing?
772
00:32:18.560 –> 00:32:20.340
And I don’t think there’s anybody listening to this
773
00:32:20.340 –> 00:32:22.140
who would say that it’s always
774
00:32:22.140 –> 00:32:24.020
sunshine and rainbows to work with your family.
775
00:32:24.020 –> 00:32:25.340
So what’s the biggest challenge?
776
00:32:26.380 –> 00:32:28.020
Well, I think the biggest one for us
777
00:32:28.020 –> 00:32:29.380
is really finding that line
778
00:32:29.380 –> 00:32:31.220
between personal and the business.
779
00:32:31.460 –> 00:32:32.880
I say future creative materials
780
00:32:32.880 –> 00:32:33.980
is like one of my siblings.
781
00:32:34.040 –> 00:32:34.800
It really is.
782
00:32:35.120 –> 00:32:37.200
So my sister and I grew up with this business
783
00:32:37.200 –> 00:32:39.560
that is just a big part of our family.
784
00:32:39.920 –> 00:32:42.120
So oftentimes we’ll be on vacation
785
00:32:42.120 –> 00:32:44.020
and we’re like, you know, have you worked out?
786
00:32:44.080 –> 00:32:44.960
Have you read that book yet?
787
00:32:45.120 –> 00:32:48.140
Are we talking about a book we’re publishing
788
00:32:48.140 –> 00:32:49.740
or a partner that we’re working with?
789
00:32:50.040 –> 00:32:53.200
And so that line gets blurred fairly often
790
00:32:53.200 –> 00:32:55.000
because it is a big part of our lives,
791
00:32:55.080 –> 00:32:56.940
our kids’ lives, our spouse’s lives,
792
00:32:57.260 –> 00:32:58.820
even our extended family.
793
00:32:58.980 –> 00:33:01.340
So I think that’s one of the harder things.
794
00:33:01.700 –> 00:33:02.740
It’s something we work on.
795
00:33:02.820 –> 00:33:03.600
We intentionally go,
796
00:33:03.740 –> 00:33:05.540
okay, I think we’re not gonna talk about
797
00:33:05.540 –> 00:33:06.880
future creative materials today.
798
00:33:07.320 –> 00:33:09.800
We fail a fair amount, but we can work at it.
799
00:33:10.320 –> 00:33:12.580
Absolutely, it’s good to set that goal at least.
800
00:33:13.780 –> 00:33:15.300
And so we were talking earlier
801
00:33:15.300 –> 00:33:17.180
about how the business has evolved
802
00:33:18.020 –> 00:33:20.440
and you’re leading an educational publishing company.
803
00:33:20.440 –> 00:33:23.580
How do you balance innovation in that space
804
00:33:24.440 –> 00:33:27.240
with tradition and trying to kind of honor
805
00:33:27.240 –> 00:33:30.140
your mom’s vision, the original founding vision?
806
00:33:31.240 –> 00:33:33.200
I think that’s actually one of the hardest things
807
00:33:33.200 –> 00:33:34.240
for any business.
808
00:33:34.580 –> 00:33:36.020
And I think that’s one of the places
809
00:33:36.020 –> 00:33:38.940
where I think family businesses have a bit of an edge
810
00:33:38.940 –> 00:33:41.840
because we do have multiple generations.
811
00:33:41.900 –> 00:33:43.800
So even though I have kids,
812
00:33:43.860 –> 00:33:45.780
my sister has kids that are still
813
00:33:45.780 –> 00:33:47.380
either in like high school and college,
814
00:33:47.840 –> 00:33:49.820
they have opinions as well too.
815
00:33:49.820 –> 00:33:51.300
So in some ways we’re very lucky
816
00:33:51.300 –> 00:33:52.440
we can be more innovative
817
00:33:52.440 –> 00:33:54.180
because we have so many voices
818
00:33:54.700 –> 00:33:56.120
from what we did traditionally
819
00:33:56.120 –> 00:33:58.520
as well as what we’re looking to do in the future.
820
00:33:59.800 –> 00:34:02.440
But it’s something we have to be looking at all the time.
821
00:34:02.600 –> 00:34:03.720
And I think specifically
822
00:34:03.720 –> 00:34:05.800
for the educational publishing side of it
823
00:34:05.800 –> 00:34:09.420
is that we spend a lot of time in classrooms.
824
00:34:10.659 –> 00:34:13.080
We try to really stay connected to our customer
825
00:34:13.080 –> 00:34:14.080
and all of us do it.
826
00:34:14.100 –> 00:34:15.120
My mom still does it.
827
00:34:15.139 –> 00:34:16.139
My sister and I do it.
828
00:34:16.920 –> 00:34:19.600
I have a daughter that’s a tutor in college right now
829
00:34:19.600 –> 00:34:20.360
and she’s calling up,
830
00:34:20.440 –> 00:34:22.100
letting me know what systems they’re using
831
00:34:22.100 –> 00:34:24.940
and what kids are doing well and what they aren’t
832
00:34:25.340 –> 00:34:27.159
because we’re all very invested in that.
833
00:34:27.179 –> 00:34:28.340
So I think one of the things
834
00:34:28.340 –> 00:34:30.159
to kind of help us stay innovative
835
00:34:30.159 –> 00:34:32.940
but still connected to really our vision,
836
00:34:32.980 –> 00:34:33.980
which is to create a world
837
00:34:33.980 –> 00:34:35.380
in which children love to learn
838
00:34:36.159 –> 00:34:38.600
is that you have to stay connected
839
00:34:38.600 –> 00:34:41.260
to your customer all of the time
840
00:34:41.260 –> 00:34:43.840
and everybody really has to understand where they are.
841
00:34:45.040 –> 00:34:46.340
And so I think it works,
842
00:34:46.340 –> 00:34:47.900
but it’s a constant battle.
843
00:34:47.900 –> 00:34:50.600
Where do we hold on to what we’ve done
844
00:34:50.600 –> 00:34:52.080
and where do we try to innovate
845
00:34:52.080 –> 00:34:53.460
and try to do something different?
846
00:34:54.360 –> 00:34:54.460
Absolutely.
847
00:34:55.420 –> 00:34:57.040
And talking about that theme
848
00:34:57.040 –> 00:34:59.260
of making decisions all the time
849
00:34:59.260 –> 00:34:59.980
and trying to make sure
850
00:34:59.980 –> 00:35:02.300
that you’re staying true to the vision.
851
00:35:02.920 –> 00:35:04.720
Do you have any formal governance
852
00:35:04.720 –> 00:35:08.060
or decision-making structures that are useful
853
00:35:08.060 –> 00:35:10.000
in making sure that the business stays aligned
854
00:35:10.000 –> 00:35:12.300
with the long-term vision of the family?
855
00:35:13.280 –> 00:35:13.960
So we do.
856
00:35:14.060 –> 00:35:15.580
And I actually kind of start with,
857
00:35:15.580 –> 00:35:18.840
we tried to do a lot more than we currently have.
858
00:35:18.920 –> 00:35:21.140
So we went to a couple of these family business
859
00:35:21.140 –> 00:35:23.440
kind of meetings and we came down with,
860
00:35:23.600 –> 00:35:25.520
we need a family constitution,
861
00:35:25.520 –> 00:35:27.160
we need a formal governance board
862
00:35:27.160 –> 00:35:28.580
and we got to all of those things
863
00:35:29.200 –> 00:35:32.900
and we ended up causing more issues than we meant to
864
00:35:32.900 –> 00:35:35.400
because we were trying to get to something
865
00:35:35.400 –> 00:35:37.060
that was gonna last forever.
866
00:35:37.520 –> 00:35:39.080
And it took us a while to read,
867
00:35:39.100 –> 00:35:40.660
maybe a couple of years where we were doing
868
00:35:40.660 –> 00:35:42.400
all of these more of what I’ll call official things.
869
00:35:42.600 –> 00:35:43.160
And then we went,
870
00:35:43.240 –> 00:35:44.940
you know, there’s only a couple of us right now.
871
00:35:44.940 –> 00:35:47.420
Why don’t we start with what makes the most sense
872
00:35:47.420 –> 00:35:48.660
for all of us now
873
00:35:49.680 –> 00:35:52.500
and create the right organizational structures for today.
874
00:35:52.880 –> 00:35:56.180
And the business that we might be in 10 years or 20 years,
875
00:35:56.180 –> 00:35:58.720
let’s just make sure what we’re doing is adaptable
876
00:35:58.720 –> 00:35:59.920
and not set in stone,
877
00:35:59.960 –> 00:36:02.120
which that took us a long time to get to.
878
00:36:02.540 –> 00:36:05.100
So where we are now is we actually have
879
00:36:05.100 –> 00:36:06.800
two family business meetings a year,
880
00:36:06.940 –> 00:36:07.740
shareholder meetings.
881
00:36:08.340 –> 00:36:09.680
We actually invite everybody,
882
00:36:09.860 –> 00:36:12.100
including all of our kids that are younger
883
00:36:12.100 –> 00:36:15.260
and we have programming about working together
884
00:36:15.260 –> 00:36:17.580
and learning about what the business is about.
885
00:36:18.120 –> 00:36:19.180
Once they’re over 18,
886
00:36:19.180 –> 00:36:20.960
they get to come to some additional parts
887
00:36:20.960 –> 00:36:23.240
that have a little bit more on decisions
888
00:36:23.240 –> 00:36:24.620
we’re making in the business.
889
00:36:25.160 –> 00:36:27.860
And so we’ve created some good structures for now,
890
00:36:27.860 –> 00:36:31.160
but I think one of our best learnings and takeaways
891
00:36:31.160 –> 00:36:35.220
was that we tried to do everything at one shot
892
00:36:35.740 –> 00:36:37.760
and we can’t really predict the future.
893
00:36:37.840 –> 00:36:40.800
So we’ve created a great organizational structure for now.
894
00:36:40.800 –> 00:36:45.160
We think we may need to change it down the road,
895
00:36:45.280 –> 00:36:46.380
but we’re open to it,
896
00:36:46.380 –> 00:36:48.080
but not trying to get ahead of ourselves.
897
00:36:48.720 –> 00:36:51.500
Yeah, I think that’s a super smart approach.
898
00:36:52.320 –> 00:36:55.460
And I also love that you even have these structures
899
00:36:55.460 –> 00:36:56.900
in place and that you thought it was a good idea
900
00:36:56.900 –> 00:36:57.580
to do these structures
901
00:36:57.580 –> 00:37:00.600
because obviously you can over-engineer it,
902
00:37:00.600 –> 00:37:03.140
but you can also be way too informal
903
00:37:03.140 –> 00:37:05.840
and like loosey goosey when it’s a small group, right?
904
00:37:05.840 –> 00:37:07.340
And then all of a sudden you turn around
905
00:37:07.340 –> 00:37:08.740
a generation or two from now
906
00:37:08.740 –> 00:37:11.500
and now there’s 50 shareholders and no structure, right?
907
00:37:11.580 –> 00:37:14.520
So it’s like, it’s very good to get out in front of it,
908
00:37:14.520 –> 00:37:17.280
but also like you said, really smart to kind of like
909
00:37:17.280 –> 00:37:18.560
leave it flexible,
910
00:37:18.560 –> 00:37:20.880
but not get too far out ahead of yourself.
911
00:37:21.040 –> 00:37:21.960
I think that’s a good lesson.
912
00:37:21.980 –> 00:37:23.200
I think we’re in the right one now,
913
00:37:23.200 –> 00:37:25.340
but for a while we were doing meetings
914
00:37:25.340 –> 00:37:27.520
every couple of weeks and really structured
915
00:37:27.520 –> 00:37:29.360
and we went, okay, let’s back off a little bit
916
00:37:29.360 –> 00:37:31.400
and two meetings a year are good.
917
00:37:31.460 –> 00:37:33.980
And then we think we have kind of the next step
918
00:37:33.980 –> 00:37:35.760
that we’ll do in the next five or so years.
919
00:37:36.020 –> 00:37:37.640
Yeah, absolutely, that’s great.
920
00:37:38.200 –> 00:37:39.400
And then my last question,
921
00:37:39.580 –> 00:37:42.000
you mentioned your daughter and the next generation.
922
00:37:42.500 –> 00:37:44.480
How are you preparing the next generation
923
00:37:44.480 –> 00:37:47.100
for leadership and stewardship of the business?
924
00:37:48.060 –> 00:37:49.100
So between my sister and I,
925
00:37:49.160 –> 00:37:51.380
we actually have six kids that are various ages
926
00:37:51.380 –> 00:37:53.700
and we’ve said to them kind of similar
927
00:37:53.700 –> 00:37:54.980
that was said to both my sister and I
928
00:37:54.980 –> 00:37:56.340
before we came into the business
929
00:37:56.340 –> 00:37:58.380
is we don’t have any expectation
930
00:37:58.380 –> 00:38:00.120
that any of you work here,
931
00:38:00.120 –> 00:38:02.020
but we do know that at some point
932
00:38:02.020 –> 00:38:03.220
you’ll be owners and stewards
933
00:38:03.220 –> 00:38:06.220
and this is a business that not only is for our family
934
00:38:06.220 –> 00:38:08.320
but for all of our employees and our partners
935
00:38:08.320 –> 00:38:11.600
and our customers that we want to really live on
936
00:38:11.600 –> 00:38:12.520
for a long time.
937
00:38:12.860 –> 00:38:16.400
So these family meetings that we have twice a year
938
00:38:16.400 –> 00:38:17.500
gives extra training,
939
00:38:17.560 –> 00:38:19.780
lots of opportunity for the kids to connect,
940
00:38:20.120 –> 00:38:21.840
understand what this business is about,
941
00:38:21.880 –> 00:38:23.720
what their responsibilities are.
942
00:38:25.080 –> 00:38:27.180
Like I said, we have the summer internship program.
943
00:38:27.860 –> 00:38:29.520
All of the kids have come through
944
00:38:29.520 –> 00:38:31.820
and they all have worked in our warehouse
945
00:38:31.820 –> 00:38:33.560
multiple years, some of them have worked
946
00:38:33.560 –> 00:38:35.360
in other departments to really understand
947
00:38:35.360 –> 00:38:36.640
what this business is about.
948
00:38:37.020 –> 00:38:38.840
But we have other requirements that they,
949
00:38:38.960 –> 00:38:40.300
after they get out of school,
950
00:38:40.340 –> 00:38:41.840
they have to work somewhere else.
951
00:38:41.940 –> 00:38:44.560
They aren’t able to come straight into the business.
952
00:38:44.620 –> 00:38:47.380
We have the expectation that they go get their own careers
953
00:38:47.380 –> 00:38:48.940
for a couple of years
954
00:38:48.940 –> 00:38:51.720
and need to be able to bring something back.
955
00:38:51.780 –> 00:38:54.380
So we’re kind of preparing them all the time
956
00:38:54.380 –> 00:38:55.600
talking about it a lot.
957
00:38:55.920 –> 00:38:57.620
They’re very much grow up in it.
958
00:38:57.640 –> 00:38:59.960
They’re here in the office as a fair amount.
959
00:39:01.240 –> 00:39:02.200
But the same time,
960
00:39:02.200 –> 00:39:03.840
we’re also preparing all of our
961
00:39:03.840 –> 00:39:07.260
non-family member employees to be our future leaders
962
00:39:07.260 –> 00:39:08.020
of the business.
963
00:39:08.960 –> 00:39:10.400
And I think that’s really important,
964
00:39:10.420 –> 00:39:11.760
especially in family businesses.
965
00:39:12.000 –> 00:39:15.240
Nobody wants to look at a young kid
966
00:39:15.240 –> 00:39:17.600
and go, that person’s gonna come take over
967
00:39:17.600 –> 00:39:19.360
a role I’m interested in.
968
00:39:19.640 –> 00:39:22.240
So I have a spectacular senior management team
969
00:39:22.240 –> 00:39:24.520
that doesn’t include any family members on it
970
00:39:24.520 –> 00:39:26.960
that have grown our business
971
00:39:26.960 –> 00:39:29.320
and do a lot to help us grow
972
00:39:29.320 –> 00:39:31.060
and are gonna be our leaders of the future.
973
00:39:31.060 –> 00:39:34.300
So I think preparing people for the right place for it.
974
00:39:34.300 –> 00:39:35.740
And I hope at some point,
975
00:39:36.180 –> 00:39:37.540
or if any of the kids are interested,
976
00:39:37.760 –> 00:39:39.800
I think there’s lots of opportunity for them,
977
00:39:39.800 –> 00:39:41.440
but they would have to be earning it
978
00:39:41.440 –> 00:39:44.480
just like our non-family member employees have as well.
979
00:39:45.460 –> 00:39:45.560
Absolutely.
980
00:39:46.260 –> 00:39:48.980
Well, I love how thoughtful you guys have been
981
00:39:48.980 –> 00:39:50.320
about all of this.
982
00:39:50.540 –> 00:39:52.320
And I think there are families that are much larger
983
00:39:52.320 –> 00:39:54.660
that have not thought things through as much as you have.
984
00:39:55.000 –> 00:39:57.040
And as you mentioned, I know it’s not always easy
985
00:39:57.040 –> 00:39:58.540
and there’s some trial and error involved,
986
00:39:58.540 –> 00:40:00.300
but it’s really impressive.
987
00:40:00.300 –> 00:40:01.460
And I just really appreciate,
988
00:40:01.560 –> 00:40:02.760
it’s been great to chat with you again.
989
00:40:02.820 –> 00:40:04.860
I really appreciate your time and your insights today.
990
00:40:05.200 –> 00:40:06.020
Well, Zach, thank you very much.
991
00:40:06.300 –> 00:40:07.180
I enjoyed being here
992
00:40:07.180 –> 00:40:09.540
and I enjoy listening to your podcast all the time.
993
00:40:09.580 –> 00:40:10.500
So thanks for having me.
994
00:40:10.700 –> 00:40:11.360
Thank you.
995
00:40:19.760 –> 00:40:20.960
You’re not just a CEO,
996
00:40:21.400 –> 00:40:22.940
you’re a family business CEO.
997
00:40:23.500 –> 00:40:24.700
You don’t just serve on a board,
998
00:40:25.020 –> 00:40:26.740
you’re a board member of a family business.
999
00:40:27.400 –> 00:40:28.500
You don’t just lead a group,
1000
00:40:28.720 –> 00:40:30.280
you lead a family council.
1001
00:40:30.820 –> 00:40:32.740
That’s why Family Business Compass exists,
1002
00:40:33.060 –> 00:40:34.720
a national membership community
1003
00:40:34.720 –> 00:40:37.320
designed exclusively for family business leaders
1004
00:40:37.320 –> 00:40:39.920
from the team behind Family Business Magazine.
1005
00:40:41.120 –> 00:40:43.440
Built on 35 plus years of experience,
1006
00:40:44.000 –> 00:40:45.860
Family Business Compass offers peer groups,
1007
00:40:46.240 –> 00:40:48.080
tools and templates, online education,
1008
00:40:48.500 –> 00:40:50.020
research, events, and more.
1009
00:40:50.840 –> 00:40:52.440
We are launching more peer groups now
1010
00:40:52.440 –> 00:40:54.760
with limited spots to ensure valuable interaction
1011
00:40:54.760 –> 00:40:57.260
and demand has exceeded expectations.
1012
00:40:58.520 –> 00:41:01.220
Apply now at familybusinessmagazine.com
1013
00:41:01.220 –> 00:41:03.800
slash family-business-compass
1014
00:41:04.420 –> 00:41:07.380
to strengthen your governance, leadership and legacy.
1015
00:41:11.550 –> 00:41:12.730
That’s it for this episode
1016
00:41:12.730 –> 00:41:15.190
of the Family Business Business Family Podcast.
1017
00:41:15.830 –> 00:41:17.530
If you have ideas for an episode
1018
00:41:17.530 –> 00:41:19.850
or you would like to be a guest on the podcast,
1019
00:41:20.470 –> 00:41:22.370
please reach out to me, Zach Needles
1020
00:41:22.370 –> 00:41:27.150
at zneedlesatfamilybusinessmagazine.com.
1021
00:41:27.910 –> 00:41:28.610
Talk to you soon.